Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by lyndon taylor »

Thank you for your kind words Dagon, I know I'm being a little obsessive about this, but I have to take anti depressants every day, way way stronger anti depressants than a few cups of coffee, this study is kind of like one that shows St John's wart to reduce suicide risk by 50%, so people don't go to a doctor, don't take the much stronger more effective anti depressants recommended by doctors for suicidal people, and bam, they're dead, because they read some study that said St John's Wort is as effective as pharmaceuticals. remember in this study something like 100 people commited suicide that were drinking a lot of coffee, heaven help us all if severely depressed people start thinking drinking coffee can replace psychiatric treatment. That's why I don't like this study, even if its true that coffee reduces suicide attempts its irresponsible to promote coffee as a medicine, its just not strong enough for anything but the mildest, least dangerous forms of depression. And you're right I was not infering that the study had anything to do with the suicides, they were, I pray, just collecting data on people.

Something equally outrageous and disgusting; "Buddhism can cure your depression, its not something chemically wrong in your brain, its just a defective way of thinking that meditation can correct. You don't need medication, drugs are bad" and bam you have a whole bunch of naive dead new Buddhists on your conscience.

As a long term forums members we need to be especially sensitive to the potentially life threatening needs of posters on this and other forums, Without a Buddhist psychiatrist on the panel, we have the chance to step in and save someones life, or at least propel them in a much more positive direction, medically, this is not theory, your opinion is as good as mine, this can be life or death, and its definetly right or wrong, I so respect Ben in the depression thread for over and over recommending professional help. If someone honestly tells you, i'm not suicidal at all, I'm just a little down, then let the faith healers go at them maybe tea leaves or coffee will do the trick, but when some one cries out in pain for help and you even sense they may be suicidal, we all need to promote getting help from a doctor. I mean if a long term member of the forum posted they were having severe chest pains after meditation, would you tell them to just relax or see a doctor pronto, same goes for any kind of severe mental illness, see a doctor and this is not my opinion, in this case alone, it is fact.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Ben
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by Ben »

Lyndon, I don't think anyone is recommending that anyone on anti-depressant medication give it up in favour of drinking coffee.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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dagon
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by dagon »

Hi Lyndon

I don’t know that you are being obsessive; I think that you are speaking from your own experience with compassion and metta for others – nothing wrong there in my book.

I do understand you concerns about not seeking medical help in all acute case and in all moderate to acute chronic cases. The use of alternative or complementary medications is another issue, especially where the medics are not told about it and prescribes ssri meds.

Personally I think that coffee can be a useful complementary treatment – if you have someone you know that is suffering make the time to sit down with them and share a cup of coffee while you listen with empathy and compassion.

I believe that Buddhism can cure your depression BUT – here is something that I stole that said it better than I can,

[quote="reflection
because the Dhamma can eliminate all suffering by ending rebirth (including dukkha of bodily pain & of impermanence, aging and death, dukkha in the aggregates/senses). And that's the final goal of the path - to end suffering by ending rebirth, by ending delusion. The goal is not to create some living experience of "no suffering". Beings who became arahant at the moment of death have just as much reached the final goal as those who stayed alive for a while, like the Buddha. That's why the suttas speak so much of ending birth, ending existence, ending consciousness. If an experience of "being free from suffering" (as a living experience) was the final goal, then this goal itself would have been temporary.
So in short, "being free from suffering" is not the final goal, but ending suffering is.[/quote]

I was rightfully corrected earlier in the thread because this is what I was think as I typed – what I said sounded like I believed that it provided a “cure” in this life.

regard
paul
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by lyndon taylor »

Thanks Dogen, well let me add my perspective to your comments on Buddhism as "cure". I am manic Depressive, I have high blood pressure and heart disease(I've already had one heart attack), I have very high chlorestorol, I just recently came down with type two diabetes(non insulin), which I will have the rest of my life if I don't lose a lot of weight, I even have a slight thyroid imbalance as a side effect of one of my other medicines, One of my manic depression medicines also causes depression as a side effect, so I have to take another medicine for depression. In all I take 10-12 different medicines every day, for all of the aforementioned conditions, and believe it or not, I do very well, I'm not plagued by med side effects, I'm very happy, the only really abnormal thing I do is sleep too much, sometimes, or when I'm sleeping "normally" I can get slightly manic, or excited, kind of like I have been the last couple days, so I have to be very careful the manic doesn't progress to less than normal sleep, in which case I have to increase the dose of my Knock out pills to get more sleep.

Enough about medicine, Im on a Buddhist path, grounded in the lay precepts, making effort on the 8fld path, really trying to bring more love and compassion for others into my life, and yes, I believe there is a path in Buddhism, that I am journeying on, that someday, even if its not this lifetime, will bring me to enlightenment,and to experience Nirvana, my goal is to be a Bodhisattva, not a non returner, even if that is not fully talked about in Thervada traditions. anyway the point is, possibly, I have no idea how likely, I may reach enlightenment before I pass on, and if I do, I am under no illusion or even dream that I will not still need to be taking most of this medicine, if not even more as I get older. In other words I don't mix my spirituality with my physical health, I've tried being cured of illness by religion, and it always ends up badly, in the hospital......And I do not believe the medicine I take in any way hinders my spiritual Journey, short of going on a vegan diet and losing 50lbs, its rather unlikely the amount of medicine I take is going to go down, but that's not any problem, it doesn't make me a second class Buddhist puttajhana that will never reach arhatship because I have a treatable mental illness, as one rather annoying poster tried to say in a thread on mental illness about a month ago, my sicknesses, illnesses, and medications don't define who I am, The buddha defines who I am, just another person on the path, a path to a better way of living.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Ben
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by Ben »

Thank you Lyndon for the courage to talk about your condition so candidly.
lyndon taylor wrote:And I do not believe the medicine I take in any way hinders my spiritual Journey, short of going on a vegan diet and losing 50lbs, its rather unlikely the amount of medicine I take is going to go down, but that's not any problem, it doesn't make me a second class Buddhist puttajhana that will never reach arhatship because I have a treatable mental illness, as one rather annoying poster tried to say in a thread on mental illness about a month ago, my sicknesses, illnesses, and medications don't define who I am, The buddha defines who I am, just another person on the path, a path to a better way of living.
You are right, neither your condition nor your medication makes you any less a Buddhist.
with metta,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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appicchato
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by appicchato »

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by lyndon taylor »

40 years ago, this is the same kind of positive commentary you might have got about cigarettes, caffeine is a stimulant, not that different from low dose crystal meth or ritalin etc. In the very low doses it does not seem to be much of a problem for MOST, drinkers, BUT NOT ALL, some people are acutely sensitive to stimulants and in a very negative way, recommending coffee and caffeine for these people is both irresponsible and wrong.

The arguement that you are better off taking a known drug is the same one that has been used to excess by the tobacco, alcohol, and marijuana industries, As Buddhists we are encouraged to avoid intoxicants, if you still want drink coffee, as even I do myself, there is no reason to encourage others more purely minded to drink stimulants when they don't want to.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Ben
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by Ben »

Hi Lyndon,
lyndon taylor wrote:
40 years ago, this is the same kind of positive commentary you might have got about cigarettes, caffeine is a stimulant, not that different from low dose crystal meth or ritalin etc. In the very low doses it does not seem to be much of a problem for MOST, drinkers, BUT NOT ALL, some people are acutely sensitive to stimulants and in a very negative way, recommending coffee and caffeine for these people is both irresponsible and wrong.

The arguement that you are better off taking a known drug is the same one that has been used to excess by the tobacco, alcohol, and marijuana industries, As Buddhists we are encouraged to avoid intoxicants, if you still want drink coffee, as even I do myself, there is no reason to encourage others more purely minded to drink stimulants when they don't want to.
I don't think Ven Apicchato was recommending or encouraging others to do anything. Bhante was merely posting a link to an article on the purported health benefits of coffee. The article that Bhante kindly linked is germane to the subject of discussion.
As I mentioned earlier, whether coffee should be classified as an intoxicant is not germane to this discussion.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by lyndon taylor »

Well it seems like I can't do anything right here, Ben, except keeping drinking coffee!!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
danieLion
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by danieLion »

Ben wrote:Very often excellent research does get funded by vested interests such as pharmaceutical companies - it doesn't necessarily mean that because the research was privately funded that the results are biased.
Hi Ben,
Have you read Deadly Monopolies: The Shocking Corporate Takeover of Life Itself--And the Consequences for Your Health and Our Medical Future by Harriet A. Washington; or Overdosed America: The Broken Promise of American Medicine by John Abramnson; or Manufacturing Depression: The Secret History of a Modern Disease by Gary Greenburg; or Selling Sickness: How the World's Biggest Pharmaceutical Companies Are Turning Us All Into Patients by Roy Moynihan and Alan Cassels; or The Truth About the Drug Companies: How They Deceive Us and What to Do About It by Marcia Angell; or The Rise and Fall of Modern Medicine by James Le Fanu?
Kindly,
dL
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Ben
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by Ben »

danieLion wrote:
Ben wrote:Very often excellent research does get funded by vested interests such as pharmaceutical companies - it doesn't necessarily mean that because the research was privately funded that the results are biased.
Hi Ben,
Have you read Deadly Monopolies: The Shocking Corporate Takeover of Life Itself--And the Consequences for Your Health and Our Medical Future by Harriet A. Washington; or Overdosed America: The Broken Promise of American Medicine by John Abramnson; or Manufacturing Depression: The Secret History of a Modern Disease by Gary Greenburg; or Selling Sickness: How the World's Biggest Pharmaceutical Companies Are Turning Us All Into Patients by Roy Moynihan and Alan Cassels; or The Truth About the Drug Companies: How They Deceive Us and What to Do About It by Marcia Angell; or The Rise and Fall of Modern Medicine by James Le Fanu?
Kindly,
dL
No I haven't Daniel. But not having read those books nor accepting the assumptions within them does not discount what I have said above.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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cooran
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by cooran »

And .... Coffee protects against Alzheimer's Disease: :tongue:
http://health.usf.edu/nocms/publicaffai ... 111781.pdf

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Ben
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by Ben »

cooran wrote:And .... Coffee protects against Alzheimer's Disease: :tongue:
http://health.usf.edu/nocms/publicaffai ... 111781.pdf

With metta,
Chris

That is interesting. Thank you Chris!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Suicide may lower coffee risks by 100 percent :stirthepot:

Is life worth living without coffee? There are so many conflicting views — this is bad for you, this is good for you. Don't cycle, it's too dangerous. Don't drive everywhere, get more exercise, etc. :tantrum:

How about following the middle way regarding such things? If you're suicidal, don't rely on coffee to resolve your problems — seek professional help. On the other hand, if you want to meditate, don't drink too much tea and coffee.
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Ben
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by Ben »

Thank you Bhante,
I don't think anyone has been suggesting that we do not take a middle way with these sorts of issues or to consume coffee instead of seeking professional help.
Personally, I think we have a responsibility to ourselves and others to ensure our health and wellbeing so that we can continue to practice for as long as possible and ensure those who depend on us can continue to do so while they need us. Hence, my interest in health and wellbeing.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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