Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

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pegembara wrote:Chocolate or coffee anyone?
Both! Mocha!

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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by Ben »

Greetings Lyndon
As to whether the study was financed by coffee producers or marketers - its usually something that gets disclosed either at the beginning or end of the article in peer-reviewed publications. Having said that, very often excellent research does get funded by vested interests such as pharmaceutical companies - it doesn't necessarily mean that because the research was privately funded that the results are biased.

As I mentioned earlier - it wasn't news to me that coffee impacts on mood. Elsewhere I have written of my experience on long retreats where I have learned from experience that the ingestion of caffeine in a retreat environment - even quite small amounts - has a significant impact on my ability to meditate. When I am not on retreat its not an issue but I become super-sensitive on retreat.

As for coffee being an intoxicant - you'll find that discussed at length in other threads.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by lyndon taylor »

We have no problem Ben, we're both coffee drinkers, the point I was trying to make is alot of people are much more sensitive to stimulants than we may be, for them to drink as much coffee as you or I, might be about the stimulant effect of you or I snorting a short line of speed, so I hope you can understand why I would not want to recommend coffee drinking to those folks so sensitive to it.

This is in no way any encouragement of people to snort speed!! Or to drink coffee for that matter if you don't want to!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by dagon »

Hi All

I think part of the problem here is that we all consider depression and associated conditions from our own personal experiences (as an individual or carer of someone with depression). In reality it can be a disease in itself or a symptom of another disease; its cause are wide and varied as is the way that it is experienced by the individual (and those close to them). Logically, the appropriate treatments also vary so generalizations come with a risk.

However, the situation where someone is suicidal the type of depression and its cause are irrelevant in the content where someone is at risk of taking their own life – the only advice can be to help that person get imitate first aid – assessment and treatment from professional with the resource back they need. Unfortunately that is not always as easy as it should be but I guess that is drifting further off topic. A cup of coffee at this point is unlikely to change much!

The only other generalization that is reasonably safe to make is that positive life style changes often help the individual both in treatment and maintenance situations. With some changes revolution maybe called for – ceasing alcohol consumption; this however should be done under medical supervision. Some changes call for evolution – such as exercise. Diet can play a big role, especial Vit B1 & B6.

As far as coffee goes (I drink way too much) there needs to be far more research than the meta-data study at Harvard and the 3 studies that provided the data to that study. The area of brain chemistry and the interaction with mood and emotion is so complicated. Are the effects direct, do they occur only in conjunction with other drugs; are the effects different for different types of depression … too many questions.

As I said before the results are interesting – the only change that they will make to what I do is that I will be more inclined to give those I care for a cup of coffee instead of encouraging them to have an alternative drink.

Regard to all
paul
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by lyndon taylor »

Well a wild theory just popped into my mind, and it would explain this study, This is a very non reputable article in Huffinton post, I truly doubt the actual scientific papers writers would have gone so far as to say Coffee or caffeine caused the lower suicide rates, when they have absolutely no proof; just a statistical correlation between a group with lower incidence of suicide also enjoying coffee much more. Its a chicken or egg dilemma and any reputable scientific study would make mention of this. Either caffeine causes people to be less suicidal, or being less suicidal causes you to be more likely to drink coffee.

Strong coffee drinkers are a segment of the population that is probably less sensitive to drugs than average, for instance it takes a lot of coffee to effect their sleep, if it ever does, it probably takes a lot of alcohol to get them drunk, probably takes them higher doses of street drugs to get off. Well guess what, suicidal ideations are usually caused by excesses of brain neuro transmitter chemicals, what if these same insensitive to caffeine people are less sensitive to the effects of the brains neuro transmitter drugs that lead to suicidal psychosis or depression, hence less likely to become sick enough to consider suicide.

Non caffeine drinkers on the other hand are very sensitive to even mild stimulants like coffee, 1 cup and they start talking a mile a minute, have tons of energy, and can't get to sleep if their life depended on it. These people are what druggies call light weights, people who get high off just a very small amount of drugs or alcohol. What if they are lightweights also for the brains neurotransmitters that often lead to suicidal psychosis or depression.

This would explain exactly why the study data is what it is, and prove that coffee drinking had absolutely nothing to do with lowering suicide, but rather that people that are less likely to commit suicide, happen to be more likely not to have adverse overeactions to caffeine so they drink more of it, And that that more sensitive, more likely to consider suicide people have natural tendencies to be oversensitive to caffeine and not enjoy drinking it.

Obviously if my theory were true, and it is obviously just a theory, encouraging non caffeine drinkers to drink coffee to lower their suicide risk would be quite illogical and wrong.
Last edited by lyndon taylor on Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

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lyndon taylor wrote:We have no problem Ben, we're both coffee drinkers, the point I was trying to make is alot of people are much more sensitive to stimulants than we may be, for them to drink as much coffee as you or I, might be about the stimulant effect of you or I snorting a short line of speed, so I hope you can understand why I would not want to recommend coffee drinking to those folks so sensitive to it.

This is in no way any encouragement of people to snort speed!! Or to drink coffee for that matter if you don't want to!!
Hi Lyndon,
Its ok - I do understand where you are coming from.

Hi Dagon,
I think part of the problem here is that we all consider depression and associated conditions from our own personal experiences (as an individual or carer of someone with depression). In reality it can be a disease in itself or a symptom of another disease; its cause are wide and varied as is the way that it is experienced by the individual (and those close to them). Logically, the appropriate treatments also vary so generalizations come with a risk.
I am not suggesting that there is a 'one size fits all' approach. As I have mentioned several times - I think the research is interesting and if there is a place for 'coffee therapy' it would be amongst a number of measures and possibly as a preventative lifestyle option.

Hi Lyndon,
Strong coffee drinkers are a segment of the population that is probably less sensitive to drugs than average, for instance it takes a lot of coffee to effect their sleep, if it ever does, it probably takes a lot of alcohol to get them drunk, probably takes them higher doses of street drugs to get off. Well guess what, suicidal ideations are usually caused by excesses of brain neuro transmitter chemicals, what if these same insensitive to caffeine people are less sensitive to the effects of the brains neuro transmitter drugs that lead to suicidal psychosis or depression, hence less likely to become crazy enough to consider suicide.
I disagree with your assessment of the Huffington Post. It is a good newspaper. And all they are doing in this instance is reporting the major findings of the published research. Rather than base your theory on what has been reported in the Huffington Post - I recommend you track down the original article which will, I am sure, fill in some of the blanks.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by cooran »

Harvard Gazette article

Coffee drinking tied to lower risk of suicide
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2 ... ide-by-50/

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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by lyndon taylor »

once again, Ben, I'm also a fan of the Huffington post, just not this article, any scientific study of this sort would mention the distinct possibility that the coffee drinking might be just coincidental to the lower suicide rate, as opposed to actually causing the lower suicide rate. Its kind of like a study that white people live on average longer than black people, does that mean being black causes you to have a shorter life, does it mean white people have better genes, or does it simply mean, because of society, black people tend to be poorer and have less access to expensive medical care.

When you do a scientific study like this, it very rare for there to be only one possible explanation for the data, but the Huffinton post only presents one possible scenario, the coffee itself causes people to be less suicidal, rather than mention as I'm sure the actual science paper mentions, there is the opposite possibility that being less suicidal causes you to drink more coffee, or makes you more likely to have a higher tolerance for caffeine.

I'm going to try to bring up the actual science paper and see what it says, and possibly copy paste.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by Ben »

Here is the article citation:
The World Journal of Biological Psychiatry, Ahead of Print : Pages 1-10

Coffee, caffeine, and risk of completed suicide: Results from three prospective cohorts of American adults
Michel Lucas
Eilis J. O’Reilly
An Pan
Fariba Mirzaei
Walter C. Willett
Olivia I. Okereke
Alberto Ascherio
(doi: 10.3109/15622975.2013.795243)


Read More: http://informahealthcare.com/doi/pdf/10 ... 013.795243
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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dagon
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

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Lyndon, mate, buddy, pal where to begin:

Leaving aside the scientific mythology behind your “theory”; the assumptions behind it - especially those relating to pharmacology.

Most people who try to commit suicide (successful or not) are those who have come to the end of their tether, see no hope for themselves and believe that those around them would be better off without them. It is either a last desperate act calling out for help or a desperate act to end it. Usually it is the end of a long road of deep and profound sadness; failed attempts to get help, a system that stigmatizes rather than support. Crazy is not a word i would use.

Ben , sorry i expressed my self badly we are total on the same page - i have seen first hand the effects you are talking about with a number of friends, family members and clients.

Regards
paul
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by Ben »

No worries, Paul.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by lyndon taylor »

Well guess what the real science article titled;Coffee, caffeine, and risk of completed suicide: Results from three prospective cohorts of American adults

costs $43 for a 24 hour pass to the journal, these guys aren't just trying to sell coffee, its funny in the Harvard Gazzette article linked to above by cooran, they claim to have evidence caffeine is an antidepressant increases levels of neurotransmitters that fight depression, but they're so convinced coffee causes lower suicide rates(sarcastic) that they recommend against starting drinking coffee if you don't already. so lets just leave it at that, but this whole thing looks a little bogus to me.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by lyndon taylor »

dagon wrote:Lyndon, mate, buddy, pal where to begin:

Leaving aside the scientific mythology behind your “theory”; the assumptions behind it - especially those relating to pharmacology.

Most people who try to commit suicide (successful or not) are those who have come to the end of their tether, see no hope for themselves and believe that those around them would be better off without them. It is either a last desperate act calling out for help or a desperate act to end it. Usually it is the end of a long road of deep and profound sadness; failed attempts to get help, a system that stigmatizes rather than support. Crazy is not a word i would use.

Ben , sorry i expressed my self badly we are total on the same page - i have seen first hand the effects you are talking about with a number of friends, family members and clients.

Regards
paul
Paul I've been devestated by several close friends suicides, been suicidal myself in my 20s, and dealt with moderate depression most of my adult life, so far be it from my to belittle depression, or to even fathom quick fix very light weight "anti depressants" like caffeine. Do you realize this Harvard study involved the suicide death of 277 individuals, and they're trying to say caffeine might have kept half of them alive, i know there's a sucker born every minute, but on this one I'm just not buying.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by Ben »

lyndon taylor wrote:Do you realize this Harvard study involved the suicide death of 277 individuals
No, it did not.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
dagon
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Re: Coffee may lower suicide risk by 50 percent

Post by dagon »

lyndon taylor wrote:
dagon wrote:Lyndon, mate, buddy, pal where to begin:

Leaving aside the scientific mythology behind your “theory”; the assumptions behind it - especially those relating to pharmacology.

Most people who try to commit suicide (successful or not) are those who have come to the end of their tether, see no hope for themselves and believe that those around them would be better off without them. It is either a last desperate act calling out for help or a desperate act to end it. Usually it is the end of a long road of deep and profound sadness; failed attempts to get help, a system that stigmatizes rather than support. Crazy is not a word i would use.

Ben , sorry i expressed my self badly we are total on the same page - i have seen first hand the effects you are talking about with a number of friends, family members and clients.

Regards
paul
Paul I've been devestated by several close friends suicides, been suicidal myself in my 20s, and dealt with moderate depression most of my adult life, so far be it from my to belittle depression, or to even fathom quick fix very light weight "anti depressants" like caffeine. Do you realize this Harvard study involved the suicide death of 277 individuals, and they're trying to say caffeine might have kept half of them alive, i know there's a sucker born every minute, but on this one I'm just not buying.
The study did not have any interactions with the people who took their own lives - it used the meta data from previous studies and used the tragic deaths of people who had taken their own lives before this study had started. My understanding is that the research is totally ethical in this regard. I hope that in the end some good can come out of the wasted rare opportunity that human life is.

In any discussion you are entitled to your own opinions (and i will respect them) but facts are facts. I have and will continue to read all of your posts, we share some of the same views and where we differ you posts cause me to think and reflect - so thank you.

with respect
paul
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