I'm confused about the different meditation methods

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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zavk
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Re: I'm confused about the different meditation methods

Post by zavk »

Hi Puthujjana,

This appears to be be a common problem that many people encounter when they are attempting to establish a meditation practice. In reading about all the different approaches/traditions, I'm sure you've read about the Five Hindrances, two of which are restlessness and doubt? In my opinion, while it is good to test out different approaches to the dhamma, it can sometimes slide into a kind of:

- restlessness: whereby one is never satisfied with the practice at hand and is always looking for something 'better'

- doubt whereby one is always questioning the teacher's and one's own abilities

Either way, one is hampered from progressing on the path. I have certainly experienced this myself and I'm sure others have experienced this too. I would follow the advice offered by Ben, Peter, and Chris. Try to stick with one approach for now. There might come a time when that approach no longer works for you. If that happens, then switch to something else. The time spent on that approach wouldn't have been 'wasted' as such, for you'd have cultivated some discipline and patience--always a good thing. You might even come to learn a thing or two about doubt, restlessness and all that.

All the best.
With metta,
zavk
rowyourboat
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Re: I'm confused about the different meditation methods

Post by rowyourboat »

as for your specific questions even 'dry' vipassana meditators attain jhana- after many years of practice (if they practice strongly) even though they might not emphasize it. different people may start out differently but (should) end up in the same place, like stream merging when closer to the sea - but their descriptions will be different. So better to start somewhere- with a real teacher- if you are practicing well, do one meditation method upto 2 years or so and until you have no further gain from it.

I think it helps to remember that the end result is samadhi-one pointedness and insight-panna. No teacher would dispute this. You might add the divine abidings and sila/morality into this as well.

It mgiht also help to keep in mind that the final authority is the dhamma-vinaya as in the pali suttas. If the buddha has mentioned it- nothing wrong in doing it- we are doing all this to the one and same mind- so it all helps in an interrelated manner.

or another way of looking at it - if you are doing away with craving, aversion and delusion you are on the right path whatever method you are practicing.

with metta
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
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puthujjana
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Re: I'm confused about the different meditation methods

Post by puthujjana »

Hej,

thank you so much, everyone! You've helped me a lot.

:bow:

At the moment I'm inclined towards samatha bhavana.

A few days ago I read a Dhammatalk by Bhante Dhammajiva (the current meditation teacher at Nissarana Vanaya/Mìtrigala).
He said that you can see if you are a samathayanika or suddhavipassanayanika by the way you are observing the sense objects and the sense doors during meditation. According to his Dhammatalk I'm definetely a samathayanika.
Dhammajiva wrote:All six sense doors operate in the same manner. Three conditions must be met to experience sense impressions that enter through the six sense doors:

i. the striker element = Arammana
ii. the base element = Dvara
iii. the ignition element = Tadupapanna

During anapanasati meditation, the striker element is the air draught. The base element is the point of touch - the tip of the nose or the top of the lip. The touch sensation or the experience of the coolness , the heat, shortness, the rubbing, the expansion or the contraction, is the ignition element. The in-breath comes and strikes on the skin and a touch sensation takes place. By way of analogy, if you take a matchstick and strike on the side of the matchbox, a spark ignites. But for ignition to take place, a particular amount of energy needs to be applied at an appropriate angle. Otherwise, it is not possible for the spark to ignite.

A yogi that focuses his or her mind on the striker element is someone who is inclined towards concentration meditation. Insight meditators have heightened and discriminating observations during anapanasati meditation. They observe the whole phenomena, all the three elements: the experience of the touch the coolness, the calmness, the rubbing sensation, the tension, the movement or the stiffness ot the breath and its point of touch during anapanasati meditation.

[...]

Practising Walking Meditation

[...]

The focus of the sensation will vary among yogis. Yogis inclined towards the ignition element will observe the sensation as the foot touches the ground. Yogis with attention on the striker element will observe the movement of the feet, the lifting and lowering of the feet.

http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/dha ... /index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So, I will try to find a compassionate and competent teacher who I can ask questions face-to-face and follow her/his teachings.
Furthermore, I'm planning to visit Na Uyana (Pa Auk branch monastery) and Nissarana Vanaya in Sri Lanka next summer.

:anjali:
"Once you understand anatta, then the burden of life is gone. You’ll be at peace with the world. When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness and we can truly be happy."
- Ajahn Chah
kannada
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Re: I'm confused about the different meditation methods

Post by kannada »

puthujjana wrote:I've read/heard so many different opposing views on meditation practice that I got confused. :rolleye:

For example:
  • mental noting <-> silently observing

    jhana is necessary for awakening <-> dry vipassana

    the Buddha declared the four rupa-jhanas as samma samadhi and he didn't teach a sevenfold path <-> momentary and/or access concentration are sufficient

    not everyone can attain jhana / jhana is impossible nowadays <-> everyone can attain jhana, some even in a very short time

    Sayadaw U Pandita's distinction between vipassana jhanas and samatha jhanas <-> every other description of the jhanas

    the description of the jhanas in the suttas is different from the jhanas in the commentaries <-> the commentarial description of the jhanas is the same as in the suttas

    you have to practice samatha before doing vipassana <-> dry vipassana <-> samatha and vipassana aren't two separated systems

    don't practice samatha it just leads to a blissful feeling and to rebirth as a deva <-> samatha and vipassana aren't two separated systems

    if you want to practice vipassana you should watch the movement of the abdomen or chest as your primary object because the breath is a concept and therefore a samatha object <-> you can also observe the elements commonly labeled as 'breath' while they are touching your nostrils

    body sweeping is just a warm-up exercise <-> Goenka's approach

    The phrase "... putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world" in the opening of the satipatthana sutta indicates that one has to attain a jhana and emerge from it first before doing satipatthana vipassana <-> the satipatthana sutta is the defintion of dry vipassana

    The satipatthana sutta is the crown of the Buddha's teachings <-> the Buddha never taught the satipatthana sutta. It's rather a compilation of meditation instructions made by meditation teachers after the Buddha's parinibbana

    etc.
It's quite funny to see that many meditators think that their own technique is the best and everyone else got it wrong :smile:

Anyway, in the last months I tried various meditation techniques. Everytime I read something inspiring (e.g. some books by Ayya Khema, Ajahn Chah, Bhante G., Mahasi Sayadaw, Pa-Auk Sayadaw, etc) I put forth effort in the particular method. But whenever I came across a critique of the technique I tried another one.

That confused me and I stopped practicing meditation...
I began to think that the best thing I could do is to try to develop the paramis and hope that in a future life I will get the chance to get meditation instructions directly from a Buddha or his enlightened disciples.

However, does anyone have any advices how to disentangle this tangle so that I could make some progress in meditation in this life?

PS: I would like to apologize for my poor english skills.
All the above are concepts, views, positions, standpoints. Their validity is not in question, simply their existence as a barrier to meditation. Meditation is about dropping views, controversy and opinions. Opinions are fine the rest of the time but should not encroach into practice time where they are seen to arise, and subside and are not self.

Regardless of what practice one undertakes the motive force behind it is a detachment or a 'cessation of identification' to whatever arises. From the most inane comment to the most profound view, for in meditation they are both the heart and soul of delusion.

k
Just a view - nothing more...
PeterB
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Re: I'm confused about the different meditation methods

Post by PeterB »

Ben wrote:Greetings Putthujana
I am not surprised that you are confused. I recommend that you find yourself a teacher that you have some confidence in and try one particular method to the exclusion of all others for a year (at least). I also recommend attending residential meditation retreats that will help you develop some depth of experience and to establish yourself with the practice.
This I think will be more beneficial than a smorgasbord approach.
Kind regards

Ben
I agree. A teacher neednt be a Guru figure, but a good experienced teacher can often see your needs after discussion, just as a good medical diagnostician can. They can then point you in the right direction. You have to do the walking though. Also as Ben says formal retreats are hugely beneficial, so much so that I would say that they are pretty much essential whereever possible.. Check out on this forum the pedigree of teachers and retreats if unsure. Someone will be able to make suggestions.
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