Buddhism and smoking, what's your thoughts?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ben
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Post by Ben » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:11 am

Courtesy of our friends in the Canadian Government:
- As early as 1945, the tobacco industry was aware of nicotine’s role in making cigarettes addictive.
- In 1962, a document by Sir Charles Ellis, a scientific advisor to British American Tobacco, stated, “smoking is a habit of addiction.”
- In 1963, Addison Yeaman, general counsel to Brown and Williamson, stated, “We are, then, in the business of selling nicotine, an addictive drug effective in the release of stress mechanisms.”
- A 1972 internal industry document states, “The cigarette should be conceived not as a product but as a package. The product is nicotine” and “Think of the cigarette pack as a storage container for [a] day’s worth of nicotine.”
- A 1992 draft report by a senior Philip Morris employee refers to cigarettes as a “nicotine delivery system.”
- The tobacco industry can remove nicotine from cigarettes but has chosen not to in order to create and maintain addictions.
- Philip Morris tested a nicotine-free brand of cigarettes, Next, in the United States, but it was withdrawn after it failed in the market.
- Numerous patents to increase nicotine levels exist in the States, including: eight patents to increase nicotine by adding it to the tobacco rod; five patents to increase nicotine by adding it to parts of the cigarette (like the filter); eight patents to extract nicotine from tobacco; and nine to develop new chemical variants of the drug.
- A 1995 study found that nicotine levels in Canadian cigarettes have increased considerably since 1968.
-- Cunningham, Rob, Smoke & Mirrors: The Canadian Tobacco War, International Development Research Centre, 1996, ISBN 0-88936-755-8, pages 156-159. cited in Canada, 2007, Nicotine Fact Sheet
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Cittasanto
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:28 am

Addiction is also under question as being an ilness not a matter of choice, but I am not saying it is not addictive, just the data which links it to certain illnesses is not as fulproof as those who spout this information would like us to think
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Cittasanto
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:31 am

http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/26/addi ... -a-choice/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

this researcher is also getting heavy critisism
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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tiltbillings
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:36 am

Manapa wrote:Addiction is also under question as being an ilness not a matter of choice, but I am not saying it is not addictive, just the data which links it to certain illnesses is not as fulproof as those who spout this information would like us to think

Your sentence structure is confusing: "Addiction is also under question as being an ilness not a matter of choice. . . . ." Huh?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Cittasanto
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:38 am

sorry tilt,
Addiction is also under question, as research is showing it is a matter of choice and free will not an illness.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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tiltbillings
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:50 am

Manapa wrote:sorry tilt,
Addiction is also under question, as research is showing it is a matter of choice and free will not an illness.
And you don't see a serious problem with this statement?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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BlackBird
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Post by BlackBird » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:51 am

tiltbillings wrote:
BlackBird wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:How accurate, Manapa, is Expelled - no inteligence allowed?
I'm not sure how you actually feel, as emotions are hard to express, and easy to misinterprete over the internet.
But the way you have been talking in this thread, I think, has some serious potential to cause suffering.

Stay well my friend.
and what you have said is an ad hominem.
Absolutely right.
Tobacco smoking isn't healthy.
Niether is painting pictures of those who do.
tiltbillings wrote: But do tell me why calling smoking a stinky filthy habit would cause suffering
The nature of your rhetoric isn't going to make smokers feel good, put it that way.
But rehashing a century old argument won't convince them to quit either.

So essentially it's unseasonable, IMO.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Ben
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Post by Ben » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:59 am

Hi Blackbird
BlackBird wrote:Niether is painting pictures of those who do.
Could you please point out where Tilt has done this?
Thanks

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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tiltbillings
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:02 am

BlackBird wrote:The nature of your rhetoric isn't going to make smokers feel good, put it that way.
But rehashing a century old argument won't convince them to quit either.
It is hardly "a century old argument." And there is no reason smokers should feel good about smoking; it is destructive to them and to those around them. The negative cost of smoking is staggering. There is absolutely no reason for smokers to feel good about smoking for any reason.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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BlackBird
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Post by BlackBird » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:21 am

tiltbillings wrote:
BlackBird wrote:The nature of your rhetoric isn't going to make smokers feel good, put it that way.
But rehashing a century old argument won't convince them to quit either.
It is hardly "a century old argument."
Again, you're quite correct. It's been going on for several centuries.
tiltbillings wrote: And there is no reason smokers should feel good about smoking; it is destructive to them and to those around them.
It's hardly destructive to those around them. Unless of course you were refering to the tax burden, in which case I think it's about time we weighed up how much governments earn from tobacco tax, and then how much tobacco related healthcare is costing a nation.

Let's take New Zealand for example.
- the NZ government recieves approx $1 billion from tobacco related taxes[1]
- the NZ government has to spend aprrox $0.25 billion on tobacco related healthcare [2]
So it's not harming the tax payer.
Nor does the smoker, increasingly relegated to smoking in private, outside, and away from the general populace - Have any great impact on the health of others.
tiltbillings wrote:The negative cost of smoking is staggering. There is absolutely no reason for smnokers to feel good about smoking for any reason.
I would be more inclined to think the negative cost of smoking is by in large, one's own health, in which case I return to my statement - Why go around making smokers feel bad about it? Surely if making someone feel bad about something we're enough to change their behaviour then there would be a lot less crime in the world. Alas the human condition doesn't operate quite like that.

Finally, let me ask you this Tilt, how does the way you have written your words in this thread, stack up against the Buddha's criteria for right speech? This is indeed a double edged sword, something I too should go away and consider.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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tiltbillings
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:52 am

BlackBird wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
BlackBird wrote:The nature of your rhetoric isn't going to make smokers feel good, put it that way.
But rehashing a century old argument won't convince them to quit either.
It is hardly "a century old argument."
Again, you're quite correct. It's been going on for several centuries.
There is that; however, I am referring to the modern 1960’s onwards issue health research. Before that, in the West, tobacco was an accepted given. “Smoke ‘em if you got ‘em.”
BB wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: And there is no reason smokers should feel good about smoking; it is destructive to them and to those around them.
It's hardly destructive to those around them.
Of course there is second hand smoke, itself a serious problem, but the pain of watching a loved one die from a tobacco related illness, or a loved one struggling to breathe because his or her lung are turned to garbage by the tar and other crap in cigarettes, is destructive.
Nor does the smoker, increasingly relegated to smoking in private
Which is where it should be. And far away from children.
I would be more inclined to think the negative cost of smoking is by in large, one's own health, in which case I return to my statement - Why go around making smokers feel bad about it?
Which is a very narrow, very limited, one-eyed point of view. One’s own health goes to hell because of one’s addiction to smoking, it has no effect on one’s loved ones? Smokers aren’t evil. Tobacco executives are, for knowing the dangers of cigarettes, for making cigarettes more addictive and for keeping that all secret until finally outed by one of their own. Smokers, who most often start very young, have made poor, immature choices, often suckered by the tobacco suits into thinking smoking is something special, something that will make one feel special.

What is there to feel good about smoking? Your bad breath, that you are turning your lungs into garbage, likely shortening your life span, the money waste on buying cigarettes, that you stink like an ashtray after smoking a cigarette? All of the for a nicotine buzz and feeling cool because you have a fag hanging out you mouth?
Finally, let me ask you this Tilt, how does the way you have written your words in this thread, stack up against the Buddha's criteria for right speech?
I have no problem with what I have written. As a health care giver, I have seen repeatedly the aftermath of smoking and the pain on the faces and in the voices of the families involved. There is no defense for smoking.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:09 am

And I would also add I have seen the pain and unbelievable regret on the faces and in the voices of the smoking victims. There is no defense for smoking.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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BlackBird
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Post by BlackBird » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:30 am

Conceded, on all points.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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tiltbillings
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:43 am

BlackBird wrote:Conceded, on all points.
Thank you. Consession is, however, not necessary.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Post by Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:32 pm

Sorry, I haven't read through this whole thread but I'm popping in with my two cents.
Cigarettes send a small surge of endorphins to the brain. That's part of why smokers love it. Especially depressed smokers.

So in my book, it's a drug. A drug that I'm horribly addicted to.

:anjali:

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