Dhamma Ending Age

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Aloka wrote:
Will wrote:One example of fake Dhamma, are the Dhamma lite followers. They classify rebirth & deva realms as cultural trappings and simply toss them aside. That makes them adherents of wrong view - but they probably will find a way rationalize their notions as correct and the tradition (which they also are not fond of) as wrong.
Good grief! I thought that the "Dharma Lite" expression which was invented by the Tibetan Buddhist Alexander Berzin, and promoted at places like E-Sangha had died a natural death - and here it is re-surfacing on the internet again!

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... _lite.html

:)
You do not care for 'the "Dharma Lite" expression' - fine. How about Wrong View Dharma? Ignoring or denying hell or deva realms, rebirth, kamma etc., all of which were taught by Buddha in the suttas, is a blunder. How big a blunder depends on how mild or strong the intent of the person ignoring or denying.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Post by Ceisiwr »

You do not care for 'the "Dharma Lite" expression' - fine. How about Wrong View Dharma? Ignoring or denying hell or deva realms, rebirth, kamma etc., all of which were taught by Buddha in the suttas, is a blunder. How big a blunder depends on how mild or strong the intent of the person ignoring or denying.
Or not ignoring or denying but using these concepts in a different way :shrug:

Furthermore you will need to prove that holding to a view of "after death I will be reborn as a slug" , is essential to buddhadhamma. That is to say a person cannot let go of everything without accepting that view
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Aloka
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Post by Aloka »

Will wrote:
Aloka wrote:
Will wrote:One example of fake Dhamma, are the Dhamma lite followers. They classify rebirth & deva realms as cultural trappings and simply toss them aside. That makes them adherents of wrong view - but they probably will find a way rationalize their notions as correct and the tradition (which they also are not fond of) as wrong.
Good grief! I thought that the "Dharma Lite" expression which was invented by the Tibetan Buddhist Alexander Berzin, and promoted at places like E-Sangha had died a natural death - and here it is re-surfacing on the internet again!

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... _lite.html

:)
You do not care for 'the "Dharma Lite" expression' - fine. How about Wrong View Dharma? Ignoring or denying hell or deva realms, rebirth, kamma etc., all of which were taught by Buddha in the suttas, is a blunder. How big a blunder depends on how mild or strong the intent of the person ignoring or denying.
I don't believe in fundamentalist views, for sure, because that's what causes more suffering in the world. Trying to intimidate others on the internet is also a "blunder".

Setting aside certain beliefs and saying "I don't know about this, I have no personal experience of it and want to focus on practice in the here and now" isn't "wrong view Dharma." - because I've also spoken to teachers from 2 different traditions about it and value their opinions.
Last edited by Aloka on Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Post by Ceisiwr »

Setting aside certain beliefs and saying "I don't know about this, I have no personal experience of it and want to focus on practice in the here and now" isn't "wrong view Dharma." - because I've also spoken to teachers from 2 different traditions about it and value their opinions.
Sadhu


:goodpost:


:namaste:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Arjan Dirkse
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Post by Arjan Dirkse »

Will wrote:
Aloka wrote:
Will wrote:One example of fake Dhamma, are the Dhamma lite followers. They classify rebirth & deva realms as cultural trappings and simply toss them aside. That makes them adherents of wrong view - but they probably will find a way rationalize their notions as correct and the tradition (which they also are not fond of) as wrong.
Good grief! I thought that the "Dharma Lite" expression which was invented by the Tibetan Buddhist Alexander Berzin, and promoted at places like E-Sangha had died a natural death - and here it is re-surfacing on the internet again!

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... _lite.html

:)
You do not care for 'the "Dharma Lite" expression' - fine. How about Wrong View Dharma? Ignoring or denying hell or deva realms, rebirth, kamma etc., all of which were taught by Buddha in the suttas, is a blunder. How big a blunder depends on how mild or strong the intent of the person ignoring or denying.
What does Buddha say about denigrating the beliefs and practices of others?

Let's not pretend there is only one valid interpretation.
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Whether 'wrong View Dhamma' or 'counterfeit Dhamma' or Dhamma lite - it is all rooted in Wrong View. And as fundamentalist as it may appear, there is only 'one valid interpretation' - that of Buddha.

See this old thread on Wrong View: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16691

He also said in A 1 (sutta 318) that 'There is nothing worse than wrong view'.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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reflection
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Post by reflection »

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Aloka
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Post by Aloka »

Whatever "Dhamma Age" it is, its always worth keeping this in mind....
Let none deceive another,
Or despise any being in any state.
Let none through anger or ill-will
Wish harm upon another.
Even as a mother protects with her life
Her child, her only child,
So with a boundless heart
Should one cherish all living beings;
Radiating kindness over the entire world:
Spreading upwards to the skies,
And downwards to the depths;
Outwards and unbounded,
Freed from hatred and ill-will.
Whether standing or walking, seated or lying down
Free from drowsiness,
One should sustain this recollection.
This is said to be the sublime abiding.

By not holding to fixed views,
The pure-hearted one, having clarity of vision,
Being freed from all sense desires,
Is not born again into this world.

(from Karaniya Metta Sutta: The Buddha's Words on Loving-Kindness)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .amar.html
and to quote Ajahn Amaro from a talk called "I am a Buddhist, why am I so angry?" which he gave a couple of years ago:

"Righteous views are not right view"


Anyway... I recall an old saying "A woman's work is never done," so that's all from me now, its time to have a cuppa and start the new day.

:hello:
Arjan Dirkse
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Post by Arjan Dirkse »

Will wrote:
He also said in A 1 (sutta 318) that 'There is nothing worse than wrong view'.
Really? Well then he's wrong. :tongue:

Your argument is an appeal to authority. People are so quick to assume that literally everything the Big Guy is supposed to have said according to their own scriptures must be literally true, while everything else, and any other opinion can therefore easily be discarded as "wrong view".
Amila K
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Post by Amila K »

clw_uk wrote: Will wrote:In Mahayana there are teachings about the symptoms of the end of the Dharma dispensation. After reading some here about this Dhammakaya group, I thought that sure fits in with Dharma Ending Era that Mahayana sutras report.

But, aside from the fact that the Sasana of our Buddha is impermanent, are there any suttas that lay out the signs of degeneration of said Dhamma?



Dear Will,

I think already you have decided about ending age by reading !The way you think wont help to get an idea.Also don't forget King Ashoka timely gave a rebirth so still we are talking and illustrating about the wisdom and the road conditions to the same.You don't wary people are there who already teach to the future about the Buddhism. I have taken your topic as a bridge to the my ultimate question.My hint is how many times Buddha visited to sri lanka?

:?:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Post by Ceisiwr »

Will wrote:Whether 'wrong View Dhamma' or 'counterfeit Dhamma' or Dhamma lite - it is all rooted in Wrong View. And as fundamentalist as it may appear, there is only 'one valid interpretation' - that of Buddha.

See this old thread on Wrong View: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16691

He also said in A 1 (sutta 318) that 'There is nothing worse than wrong view'.

Isnt it better translated as "skilful view"

That is, which is more skiful at leading to letting go?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
oceanfloor
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Post by oceanfloor »

Arjan Dirkse wrote:If getting rid of superstitious trappings you don't believe in, while embracing a Buddhist practice you feel is helpful and beneficial to yourself and others, is a sign of the dhamma ending age, then please let the dhamma end today. :tongue:

We get terribly hung up on definitions and doctrinal delineations on forums such as these. But Buddhism is spreading, is thriving, and it's definitely a force for good. If the interest of its followers is more about achieving happiness and doing good things, like safeguarding the environment, or helping people in difficult circumstances, fighting inequality or exploitation etc, than in "keeping the faith pure", then that is only a good thing.
The Dhamma is not ended yet. It is degrading until no one knows the true Dhamma.
Actual signs of Dhamma ending age:
- lesser and lesser people refer to sutta
- more and more people cannot differentiate between true Dhamma and counterfeit Dhamma
- counterfeit Dhamma gains more popularity, such as in the west
- abbot of Buddhist temple watches NBA playoff in his room

It is indeed Dhamma ending age. Learn diligently while there is time.

:anjali:
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mikenz66
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Post by mikenz66 »

clw_uk wrote:
Will wrote:Whether 'wrong View Dhamma' or 'counterfeit Dhamma' or Dhamma lite - it is all rooted in Wrong View. And as fundamentalist as it may appear, there is only 'one valid interpretation' - that of Buddha.

See this old thread on Wrong View: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16691

He also said in A 1 (sutta 318) that 'There is nothing worse than wrong view'.

Isnt it better translated as "skilful view"

That is, which is more skiful at leading to letting go?
I think that's the point that Will is making. If some interpretations are more or less effective/valid/wrong/skilful than others then it is actutally important to identify which is which.

I don't think anyone here woud disagree that if someone was under the misapperehension that it is possible to effectively practice while killing, stealing, etc, etc, we'd be doing them a favour by telling them (politely) that they were deluded. We wouldn't be saying: "Oh, you need to be kind to him, and let him think whatever he wants to...".

We have less consensus on whether some modern developments ("Dhamma Lite" if you like) are actually ineffective but it's obviously a question worth exploring.

:anjali:
Mike
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Aloka
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Post by Aloka »

Regarding degeneration of the Dhamma:

The first time I read this sutta about 3 or 4 years ago, tears began streaming down my cheeks, because at that time, I felt that it had already started happening a long time ago, especially this part: "But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric...."

SN 20.7 Ani Sutta: The Peg

Staying at Savatthi. "Monks, there once was a time when the Dasarahas had a large drum called 'Summoner.' Whenever Summoner was split, the Dasarahas inserted another peg in it, until the time came when Summoner's original wooden body had disappeared and only a conglomeration of pegs remained.

"In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.

"In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — will come about.

"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:anjali:
Arjan Dirkse
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Post by Arjan Dirkse »

mikenz66 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Will wrote:Whether 'wrong View Dhamma' or 'counterfeit Dhamma' or Dhamma lite - it is all rooted in Wrong View. And as fundamentalist as it may appear, there is only 'one valid interpretation' - that of Buddha.

See this old thread on Wrong View: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16691

He also said in A 1 (sutta 318) that 'There is nothing worse than wrong view'.

Isnt it better translated as "skilful view"

That is, which is more skiful at leading to letting go?
I think that's the point that Will is making. If some interpretations are more or less effective/valid/wrong/skilful than others then it is actutally important to identify which is which.

I don't think anyone here woud disagree that if someone was under the misapperehension that it is possible to effectively practice while killing, stealing, etc, etc, we'd be doing them a favour by telling them (politely) that they were deluded. We wouldn't be saying: "Oh, you need to be kind to him, and let him think whatever he wants to...".

We have less consensus on whether some modern developments ("Dhamma Lite" if you like) are actually ineffective but it's obviously a question worth exploring.

:anjali:
Mike
True...but some tact is called for. When everybody just starts quoting scripture to prove that everyone else is wrong, you can't really have a fruitful discussion anymore.

Pointing out wrong view is great in a teacher - student relation, or for an individual to apply to him or herself. When people of different convictions start using it to discredit alternative viewpoints, that is just unhelpful and unpleasant.

As to the whole "dhamma lite" thing - I have no doubt it is just the same as has always been the case. Right after the Buddha died, different groups started popping up all over the place. Sthaviravadins, Mahasamghika, Dharmaguptakas, Sarvastivadins, Sautantrika, and then of course all the widely different Mahayana schools. I bet the "wrong view" accusation has been used a lot of times in heated debates even back then, and the "dhamma ending age" argument likewise..."Your beliefs are different than mine, therefore the dhamma ending age is here!"
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