Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

[Martin Po]

But i'am convinced that all phenomenon is appropriate to situation, all phenomenon is result of conditions, if there is somethink it's because this "somethink" have to be and there is no other way.
There is Anatta and Harmony.

So, all those Jews and others put to death by the Nazis are simply an example of harmony and anatta as taught by the Buddha.

(Also, "somethink" should be something.)

Yes.
Hitler is humanity fruit. There is conditions and consequences - that all.
This war have good and bad sides.

PS in others topics you speak about anatta, but you not realy accept it. You should. It's good for equanimity, and equanimity is good for wisdom, if humanity want to avoid such Hitler's horrors, humanity have to develop wisdom.

[tiltbillings]

But i'am convinced that all phenomenon is appropriate to situation, all phenomenon is result of conditions, if there is somethink it's because this "somethink" have to be and there is no other way.
There is Anatta and Harmony.

So, all those Jews and others put to death by the Nazis are simply an example of harmony and anatta as taught by the Buddha.

(Also, "somethink" should be something.)

Yes.
Hitler is humanity fruit. There is conditions and consequences - that all.
This war have good and bad sides.

Killing six million Jews was good?

PS in others topics you speak about anatta, but you not realy accept it.

You are not the arbiter of who does and does not accept anatta.

[Martin Po]

Killing six million Jews was good?

And 7 million of germans is good?
Or 24 millions of soviet peoples?
Or 15 millions of chinese peoples?
...

You forgot 57 millions of "others".

[tiltbillings]

Killing six million Jews was good?

And 7 million of germans is good?
Or 24 millions of soviet peoples?
Or 15 millions of chinese peoples?
...

You forgot 57 millions of "others".

And those people being killed is, to use your words, an "appropriate" "result of conditions" and is an expression, to again use your words, of "anatta and harmony."

[Martin Po]

There is death when there is no conditions to life, it's all that a want to say.

If you not accept anicca, dukkha, anatta, kamma, compassion, forgiveness, equanimity, wisdom and 4Noble Truth you have to change your belief systhem.
With respect, and metta.

Thanks for dialogue.

MN 13 PTS: M i 83
Maha-dukkhakkhandha Sutta: The Great Mass of Stress

Sensuality

"Now what, monks, is the allure of sensuality? These five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Now whatever pleasure or joy arises in dependence on these five strands of sensuality, that is the allure of sensuality.

"And what is the drawback of sensuality? There is the case where, on account of the occupation by which a clansman makes a living — whether checking or accounting or calculating or plowing or trading or cattle-tending or archery or as a king's man, or whatever the occupation may be — he faces cold, he faces heat, being harassed by mosquitoes & flies, wind & sun & creeping things, dying from hunger & thirst.

"Now this drawback in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"If the clansman gains no wealth while thus working & striving & making effort, he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught: 'My work is in vain, my efforts are fruitless!' Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"If the clansman gains wealth while thus working & striving & making effort, he experiences pain & distress in protecting it: 'How will neither kings nor thieves make off with my property, nor fire burn it, nor water sweep it away, nor hateful heirs make off with it?' And as he thus guards and watches over his property, kings or thieves make off with it, or fire burns it, or water sweeps it away, or hateful heirs make off with it. And he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught: 'What was mine is no more!' Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source, sensuality for the cause, the reason being simply sensuality, that kings quarrel with kings, nobles with nobles, brahmans with brahmans, householders with householders, mother with child, child with mother, father with child, child with father, brother with brother, sister with sister, brother with sister, sister with brother, friend with friend. And then in their quarrels, brawls, & disputes, they attack one another with fists or with clods or with sticks or with knives, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that (men), taking swords & shields and buckling on bows & quivers, charge into battle massed in double array while arrows & spears are flying and swords are flashing; and there they are wounded by arrows & spears, and their heads are cut off by swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that (men), taking swords & shields and buckling on bows & quivers, charge slippery bastions while arrows & spears are flying and swords are flashing; and there they are splashed with boiling cow dung and crushed under heavy weights, and their heads are cut off by swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that (men) break into windows, seize plunder, commit burglary, ambush highways, commit adultery, and when they are captured, kings have them tortured in many ways. They flog them with whips, beat them with canes, beat them with clubs. They cut off their hands, cut off their feet, cut off their hands & feet. They cut off their ears, cut off their noses, cut off their ears & noses. They subject them to the 'porridge pot,' the 'polished-shell shave,' the 'Rahu's mouth,' the 'flaming garland,' the 'blazing hand,' the 'grass-duty (ascetic),' the 'bark-dress (ascetic),' the 'burning antelope,' the 'meat hooks,' the 'coin-gouging,' the 'lye pickling,' the 'pivot on a stake,' the 'rolled-up bed.' They have them splashed with boiling oil, devoured by dogs, impaled alive on stakes. They have their heads cut off with swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that (people) engage in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. Having engaged in bodily, verbal, and mental misconduct, they — on the break-up of the body, after death — re-appear in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress in the future life, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"And what, monks, is the escape from sensuality? The subduing of desire-passion for sensuality, the abandoning of desire-passion for sensuality: That is the escape from sensuality.

[tiltbillings]

There is death when there is no conditions to life, it's all that a want to say.

What you said is that that death is appropriate and expression of harmony.

If you not accept anicca, dukkha, anatta, kamma, compassion, forgiveness, equanimity, wisdom and 4Noble Truth you have to change your belief systhem.
With respect, and metta.

Thanks for dialogue.

I simply do not accept your particular take on things where you state that all that death is a result of harmony and not bad because it is the appropriate results of conditions.

[Raksha]

The article is distorted and largely incorrect. It is true that Westerners often have a view of Buddhism coloured by their own requirements (scientific, pacifistic etc.), however Buddhism is beyond question a religion of peace. There are one or two circumstances in which one can kill but they are extremely rare and peculiar circumstances. In 99.9% of situations killing is wrong, and it results in dire consequences. His Holiness is perhaps referring to these unique theoretical circumstances, but in practice it is clear that countless Tibetan monks and nuns have been tortured and murdered by an unspeakable enemy whilst filled with love and forgiveness.

[Kusala]

I dont think that vajrayana and Dalai Lama are buddhism.
Dalai Lama also say that lying is not so bad.

Also i think that Hitler's horros was a good experiance for humanity, and due to this experiance they took some good decisions. All experiance is good when there is wisdom.

Let's not turn this into a Theravada vs Mahayana/Vajrayana thread. That being said, how are the 3 poisons: greed, hatred, and delusion good for humanity?

[Mr Man]

I think there are a couple of points which are worth reflecting upon: Is "Buddhism" the teaching of the Buddha or is it the institutions we have today? Which is actually representative of what should be called "Buddhism". And do we need a third party to justify or legitimize (or condemn) our actions?

[Mr Man]

That being said, how are the 3 poisons: greed, hatred, and delusion good for humanity?

I had also wondered about that. Seems like an almost Christian idea.

[Martin Po]

That being said, how are the 3 poisons: greed, hatred, and delusion good for humanity?

1st Noble Truth.

Have heared the teaching we know:

- birth is dukkha, agging is dukkha, death is dukkha
- sorrow, grief, lamentation, pain, dispair are dukkha
- assositation with disliked is dukkha, separation from liked is dukkha, not getting one's wishes is dukkha
- in brief, 5 focuses of identity is dukkha
- form, feeling, perception, formation, consciousness are dukkha

What is dukkha is permanent ?
What is dukkha is self ?

[Raksha]

I dont think that vajrayana and Dalai Lama are buddhism.

If I wrote that I would be banned, for making a ridiculous and unsubstantiated remark. I might secretly believe that you are a lobster, but I wouldn't post it on the world wide web.

Dalai Lama also say that lying is not so bad.

When?

Also i think that Hitler's horros was a good experiance for humanity

What?

[Martin Po]

I dont think that vajrayana and Dalai Lama are buddhism.

If I wrote that I would be banned, for making a ridiculous and unsubstantiated remark. I might secretly believe that you are a lobster, but I wouldn't post it on the world wide web.

My opinion is based on:
Mahayana say that there is no suffering, no cause, no cessation, and no way - it's a contradition to Buddha's teaching.
Vajrayna have wrong view and wrong motivation, so there is wrong speach, action, livelihood, striving, mindfulness, concentration, fruit and liberation.

Many of maha-vajrayana practitioners don't know what is it 4 Noble Truth, and Noble Eightfold Path.

So, in my humble opinion, it's no a Buddha Dhamma, not a Dhamma Thought by Lord Buddha. I'am not saying that i'am raison, i just expose my arguments, if i'am right - so it is, if i'am wrong - so it is, it will not change my practice, so i will no continue to speak aboit this question.

Dalai Lama also say that lying is not so bad.

When?

I don't know, i heared it from some disciple of HHDL, when we have discourse about Right Speach. I dont know if it's true, if it's not, i'am sorry.

Also i think that Hitler's horros was a good experiance for humanity

What?

Without this horror, there would not be EU, Israel, nuclear disarmement, durable peace between American, Europeen, Asian countries etc.
Doctors make vaccine to generate anti-cores and avoid epidiemics. Vaccine is bad or good experiance?

[Zenainder]

Absolutes are ambigious, as is for this existence. How many countless events in humanities history have the "good" vs "bad" (perspective dependent) and ended in a slaughtering? Hitler was not the first, nor will he be the last. Does it make a difference from an infinite stand point to murder (assuming foresight) a soon to be Hitler? Another timeline will unfold to an eventual manifestation of another Hitler long after you (current relative state), who murdered the previous soon to be Hitler, has passed on.

Hitler did not rise on his own. Did not murder millions firsthand. He had the help and support of 1,000's of others who either blindly followed, refused to question, or was just "following orders" and not to mention if he was truly even the "ring leader" of the whole ordeal.
&
Did killing Osama Bin Laden solve anything? Or did it just make us blind? What of the actions that resulted in condtions and causes for resentment in the middle east? Did the American Govt sow its owe khamma and raise its own devil due to its involvement and intervention years ago?

It seems pointless to me either way. History repeats itself in the end.

[tiltbillings]

Mahayana say that there is no suffering, no cause, no cessation, and no way -

No, it does not.