"The Deathless" (amata)

[tiltbillings]

There is basis in sutta about Nibbana-dhatu, about cessation.

Certainly, but not the way you describe it.

And since you have used the word "dhatu," do tell us what it actually means and how it is actually used in the suttas.

[cooran]

Hello Martin, Tilt,

Here is the Nibbana-Dhatu Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-044

With metta,
Chris

[tiltbillings]

Hello Martin, Tilt,

Here is the Nibbana-Dhatu Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-044

With metta,
Chris

I am well aware of that sutta, and it does not alter anything I have said in this thread. There is a problem, of course, with how dhatu is understood. "Element" is probably the most common way it is translated, but that is, it would seem, a problematic translation in that it implies a thingness to nibbana, as we have just seen.

[Martin Po]

There is basis in sutta about Nibbana-dhatu, about cessation.

Certainly, but not the way you describe it.

And since you have used the word "dhatu," do tell us what it actually means and how it is actually used in the suttas.

Perharps.
To explain better, by 0 i mean absence of 1, by silence i mean absence of sound, by Nibbana-dhatu i mean absence of movement of mind, absence of greed, hatred, delusion etc.

You are reason to break all possible ground to apearence of permanent-atta, but in Nibbana-dhatu there is no ground for such phenomenon as "I", "Mine", "I'am".
Why?
Because nothing can penetrate it. Mara have no acces to one who knows, enter and dwell in such taintless abiding. Form, feeling, perceptions, mental formations, consciousness are seen as they are, without contact. 1 have no contact with 0. And without 1 nothink remain. River have 2 shore, without river there is no shores. This river is consciousness river, when there is no movement (no craving), there is no river.

It's just a simile.

Anyway you are reason to break all mental formations about Nibbana, because holy life is lived not for honor or gain / virtue / concentration / vision and knowledge, but only for Nibbana, for uproot of greed, hatred and delusion. (MN 29)

[reflection]

Hello Martin, Tilt,

Here is the Nibbana-Dhatu Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-044

With metta,
Chris

I am well aware of that sutta, and it does not alter anything I have said in this thread. There is a problem, of course, with how dhatu is understood. "Element" is probably the most common way it is translated, but that is, it would seem, a problematic translation in that it implies a thingness to nibbana, as we have just seen.

I agree "elements" is not the most useful translation, but the problem also lies in the term nibbana. Nibbana being a noun already implies a thingness. But we should understand it as a noun like "freedom". Freedom is not a thing on its own, but is descriptive of things one is free off. We could say "elements of freedom" and everybody would understand they are not things you can find somewhere. But when saying nibbana some people automatically assume it is speaking about a sort of permanent experience, so the "elements of nibbana" get their own meaning as well. "The deathless" of course is a similar case as you have argued well.

[tiltbillings]

. . .

Quite frankly, I do not understand what you are trying to say here.

[tiltbillings]

Hello Martin, Tilt,

Here is the Nibbana-Dhatu Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-044

With metta,
Chris

I am well aware of that sutta, and it does not alter anything I have said in this thread. There is a problem, of course, with how dhatu is understood. "Element" is probably the most common way it is translated, but that is, it would seem, a problematic translation in that it implies a thingness to nibbana, as we have just seen.

I agree "elements" is not the most useful translation, but the problem also lies in the term nibbana. Nibbana being a noun already implies a thingness. But we should understand it as a noun like "freedom". Freedom is not a thing on its own, but is descriptive of things one is free off. We could say "elements of freedom" and everybody would understand they are not things you can find somewhere. But when saying nibbana some people automatically assume it is speaking about a sort of permanent experience, so the "elements of nibbana" get their own meaning as well. "The deathless" of course is a similar case as you have argued well.

The one thing that would be seriously worth doing is looking at how dhatu is used throughout the suttas.

[Martin Po]

. . .

Quite frankly, I do not understand what you are trying to say here.

Nothink important

[SarathW]

Hello friends,
The way I understand Dhatu means the five aggregate. In my native language we call Dhatu for Buddha’s or Arahant’s body parts. (egg: Tooth relics)

Most of Sri Lankan Theravada monkS interpret these two types as follows:
-------------------------------
When Nibbāna is realized in the body, it is called Sopādisesa
Nibbāna Dhātu. When an Arahant attains Pari-Nibbāna after
the dissolution of the body, without any remainder of any
physical existence, it is called Anupādisesa Nibbāna Dhātu.
Page 391:
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf
---------------------------------
Last night I brought up this matter with the monk at my temple. His explanation is the same as above.
Then I explained to him about Ven, Thanissaros translation.
He said that some believe that the second type Anupadisesa Nibbana Dhatu, refer to Anagami’s who has not attain full liberation as yet.
I know this is pretty controversial and please keep the open mind and consult with some reliable sources.
Meanwhile I look for more details.

[SarathW]

I found more info:

Upādi: lit. 'something which one grasps, to which one clings, i.e. the 5 groups of existence khandha. In the suttas, the word is mostly used in such expressions as;One of the 2 fruits may be expected: either perfect understanding or, if the groups are still remaining sati upādi-sese 'if there is a remainder of groups, Anāgāmīship; D. 22. Further A. IV. 118:;Here the Perfect One has passed into the Nibbāna-element in which no more groups are remaining anupādi-sesa Cf. nibbāna upādinna-rūpa: 'kammically acquired materiality', or 'matter clung-to by kamma', is identical with kamma-produced materiality kammaja-rūpa, see: samutthāna In Vis.M XIV it is said:;That materiality which, later on, we shall refer to as 'kamma-produced' kammaja is, for its being dependent on previous pre-natal kamma, called 'kammically acquired'. '' The term upādinna occurs so in the suttas, e.g. M. 28 WHEEL 101, 62, 140. See Dhs. §990; Khandha Vibh.

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... .htm#upādi

[tiltbillings]

Hello friends,
The way I understand Dhatu means the five aggregate. In my native language we call Dhatu for Buddha’s or Arahant’s body parts. (egg: Tooth relics)

The issue is not what dhatu means in a contemporary language; rather, how dhatu is used in the suttas

[SarathW]

What about this then?

===========================

Dhātu: 'elements', are the ultimate constituents of a whole.

I The 4 physical elements dhātu or mahā-bhūta popularly called earth, water, fire and wind, are to be understood as the primary qualities of matter. They are named in Pāli: pathavī-dhātu, āpo-dhātu, tejo-dhātu, and vāyo-dhātu In Vis.M XI, 2 the four elements are defined thus:,Whatever is characterized by hardness thaddha-lakkkhana is the earth or solid-element; by cohesion ābandhana or fluidity, the water-element; by heating paripācana the fire or heat-element; by strengthening or supporting vitthambhana the wind or motion-element. All four are present in every material object, though in varying degrees of strength. If, for instance, the earth element predominates, the material object is called 'solid', etc. - For the analysis of the 4 elements, see: dhātu-vavatthāna

II The 18 physical and mental elements that constitute the conditions or foundations of the process of perception, are:


1. visual organ eye 10. body-contact
2. auditory organ ear 11. visual-consciousness
3. olfactory organ nose 12. ear-consciousness
4. gustatory organ tongue 13. nose-consciousness
5. tactile organ body 14. tongue-consciousness
6. visible object 15. body-consciousness
7. sound or audible object 16. mind-element
mano-dhātu
8. odour or olfactive object 17. mental-object
dhamma-dhātu
9. gustative object 18. mind-consciousness-element
mano-viññāna-dhātu

1-10 are physical; 11-16 and 18 are mental; 17 may be either physical or mental. - 16 performs the function of directing āvajjana towards the object at the inception of a process of sense-consciousness; it further performs the function of receiving sampaticchana the sense-object. 18 performs, e.g., the function of investigation santīrana determining votthapana and registering tadārammana - for its other functions, see: Table I. For the 14 functions of consciousness, see: viññāna-kicca

Cf. M. 115; see: XIV and especially Vibh. II Guide p. 28f, Vis.M XV, 17ff.

Of the many further groupings of elements enumerated in M. 115, the best known is that of the 3 world-elements: the sense-world kāma-dhātu the fine-material world rūpa-dhātu the immaterial world arūpa-dhātu further the sixfold group: the solid, liquid, heat, motion, space, consciousness pathavī, āpo, tejo, vāyo, ākāsa, viññāna see: above I, described in M. 140; see also M. 112.

Dhātu-

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dic3_d.htm

[tiltbillings]

What about this then?

===========================

Dhātu: 'elements', are the ultimate constituents of a whole.

I The 4 physical elements dhātu or mahā-bhūta popularly called earth, water, fire and wind, are to be understood as the primary qualities of matter. They are named in Pāli: pathavī-dhātu, āpo-dhātu, tejo-dhātu, and vāyo-dhātu In Vis.M XI, 2 the four elements are defined thus:,Whatever is characterized by hardness thaddha-lakkkhana is the earth or solid-element; by cohesion ābandhana or fluidity, the water-element; by heating paripācana the fire or heat-element; by strengthening or supporting vitthambhana the wind or motion-element. All four are present in every material object, though in varying degrees of strength. If, for instance, the earth element predominates, the material object is called 'solid', etc. - For the analysis of the 4 elements, see: dhātu-vavatthāna

II The 18 physical and mental elements that constitute the conditions or foundations of the process of perception, are:


1. visual organ eye 10. body-contact
2. auditory organ ear 11. visual-consciousness
3. olfactory organ nose 12. ear-consciousness
4. gustatory organ tongue 13. nose-consciousness
5. tactile organ body 14. tongue-consciousness
6. visible object 15. body-consciousness
7. sound or audible object 16. mind-element
mano-dhātu
8. odour or olfactive object 17. mental-object
dhamma-dhātu
9. gustative object 18. mind-consciousness-element
mano-viññāna-dhātu

1-10 are physical; 11-16 and 18 are mental; 17 may be either physical or mental. - 16 performs the function of directing āvajjana towards the object at the inception of a process of sense-consciousness; it further performs the function of receiving sampaticchana the sense-object. 18 performs, e.g., the function of investigation santīrana determining votthapana and registering tadārammana - for its other functions, see: Table I. For the 14 functions of consciousness, see: viññāna-kicca

Cf. M. 115; see: XIV and especially Vibh. II Guide p. 28f, Vis.M XV, 17ff.

Of the many further groupings of elements enumerated in M. 115, the best known is that of the 3 world-elements: the sense-world kāma-dhātu the fine-material world rūpa-dhātu the immaterial world arūpa-dhātu further the sixfold group: the solid, liquid, heat, motion, space, consciousness pathavī, āpo, tejo, vāyo, ākāsa, viññāna see: above I, described in M. 140; see also M. 112.

Dhātu-

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dic3_d.htm

To make it simpler, the suttas are a better source for discussion.

[SarathW]

Hello friends,
The way I understand Dhatu means the five aggregate. In my native language we call Dhatu for Buddha’s or Arahant’s body parts. (egg: Tooth relics)

The issue is not what dhatu means in a contemporary language; rather, how dhatu is used in the suttas

How about this then:

http://palicanon.org/index.php/sutta-pi ... f-elements

[tiltbillings]

Hello friends,
The way I understand Dhatu means the five aggregate. In my native language we call Dhatu for Buddha’s or Arahant’s body parts. (egg: Tooth relics)

The issue is not what dhatu means in a contemporary language; rather, how dhatu is used in the suttas

How about this then:

http://palicanon.org/index.php/sutta-pi ... f-elements

Yes, how about that.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 47#p255627