AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

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santa100
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Post by santa100 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:54 pm

Sam Vara wrote:According to Thanissaro, the fear and animosity are produced (not felt or experienced). According to BB, they are created - not felt or experienced. But for both translators, the mental pain and dejection are experienced
According to Spk II 73,17–33, commenting on SN 12:41 where enmity (internal/external) is the "volition arisen in one", it touches the volitional aspect of the mental factors (cetasika) when it mentions peril&enmity, while for mental pain&dejection it seems to touch the feeling/perception aspect of cetasika.

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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:45 pm

santa100 wrote:
Sam Vara wrote:According to Thanissaro, the fear and animosity are produced (not felt or experienced). According to BB, they are created - not felt or experienced. But for both translators, the mental pain and dejection are experienced
According to Spk II 73,17–33, commenting on SN 12:41 where enmity (internal/external) is the "volition arisen in one", it touches the volitional aspect of the mental factors (cetasika) when it mentions peril&enmity, while for mental pain&dejection it seems to touch the feeling/perception aspect of cetasika.
Ah, thanks, that's really helpful. What about the volitional aspect of sexual misconduct, or taking the not given? That would not seem to be enmity/animosity, but forms of lust.

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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:51 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:Quote from The OPs scripture quote;

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."


i'm just saying it seems this is something that, as it is written, could only be fully accomplished while meditating, as opposed to in everyday life, although of course elements of it could be incorporated into everyday life.
Hi Lyndon,

You might find previous discussions on suttas from the Nidana-samyutta — Paticcasamuppada (dependent co-arising) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .html#sn12 of interest:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=10553
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=10845
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11034
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11403
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11574
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11701
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11836
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11987
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=12133
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=12266
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=12444
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=12606
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11269

As you say, understanding the process is not trivial, and there are various ways of interpreting it.

:anjali:
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:56 pm

I thought that it was interesting how in this sutta there is a clear connection between "this-that conditionality, and the detailed dependent-orgination sequence, with the latter an elaboration of the former:
"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones notices: When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

"In other words: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
...
:anjali:
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:02 pm

And see this thread on the relationship between this-that conditionality and dependent origination:
Pali Term: Idappaccayatā
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 58#p252658

And the discussion here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 38#p252638

:anjali:
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Post by lyndon taylor » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:26 pm

Im just pointing out that when we talk about eliminating consciousness, name and form, sense perception etc, its obviously a lot easier to do some of this during meditation, and practically impossible to do all of this in everyday life, Im a firm believer that the enlightened Buddha could still have driven a car or crossed a busy street if he lived today. Its important to consider when we read passages like this are we taking about a meditative state, or an everyday functioning awake state.
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Post by Martin Po » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:46 pm

I think both are possible.
Memory remain, "autopilot" (anatta) remain.

But it's true that in sammasamadhi it's must be "easyer".

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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Post by santa100 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:20 pm

Sam Vara wrote:Ah, thanks, that's really helpful. What about the volitional aspect of sexual misconduct, or taking the not given? That would not seem to be enmity/animosity, but forms of lust.
Well, back to my example, if John Doe was having an affair with Jim Roe's wife and got caught, I think Jim's animosity would be just as severe if not even more than when say John killed Jim's dad!! Similar logic for stealing, etc.. Anyway, there're always cases when one did something bad and yet was able to cleanly got away without being caught for the rest of his life. But anyhow, kamma will always find a way to get even with him, whether in this life or in the next. Either way, one won't be able to escape that "external enmity" when the hell warden settle the score with him down there... :tongue:

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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Post by seaturtle » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:35 am

In regard to the question about fear and animosity, I agree that interpreting the statement as a criteria for the severity of breaches to the precepts is a complicated interpretation. I don't read the loophole, that is I don't think the Buddha was suggesting that it is possible to break the precepts without causing fear and animosity if not now then further down the road. Sure, we can try to imagine situations where we could break the precepts and not create fear or animosity, but that is imagination. Better to observe real life. Can one truly steal from a large organization without them noticing or caring? The money companies like Walmart spend on security and the warnings they post about shoplifting suggest not. Can one use drugs and not create fear? What about the supply chain to produce drugs? If drinking alcohol, even if one is not an addict, if one is supporting a business that also profits off addiction, isn't one partially responsible for the fear and animosity created by addiction? Even if no one else knows, isn't it possible to create fear or animosity in our own mind because of the thought others might do the same things to us we do to others? This is by no means an exhaustive list, just a few examples to think about. Producing fear and animosity is not limited to the here and now, it can also occur in the future. Do we always understand the ramifications of our actions? I am reminded of the sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html which warns us not to try to sort out the exact workings of kamma. Trying to figure out if there is a loophole to breaking the precepts may be fruitful in that by going down that road we can see for ourselves that it is in fact the wrong path. Some of us need to learn things the hard way. I know that because I tend to fall into that group.

As far as the dependent origination goes, I am not advanced enough to tackle that directly. But bear in mind this sutta was addressed to Anathapindika, one of the chief lay disciples of the Buddha (and my current inspiration). He is mentioned in many suttas, and in one sutta even teaches about right view (AN10.93). He does mention dependent origination, saying "Venerable sirs, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. Having seen this well with right discernment as it actually is present, I also discern the higher escape from it as it actually is present."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

How that relates to consciousness in the dependent origination as described here still a little beyond me, but the two descriptions appear to be related in that they both say things that are fabricated are inconstant (subject to birth old age sickness and death) and are therefore suffering. Since Anathapindika was a lay disciple and not a monk it does not appear that dependent origination is beyond the scope of everyday life.

This leaves me with some questions.  First, when the Buddha is talking about the cessation of consciousness in general or the cessation of consciousness specifically related to the fabrication conditioned by ignorance? And second, why does Anathapindika link dependent origination to nonself? How does non self fit into the chain as described in AN 10.92 and elsewhere? Are either of these issues addressed elsewhere on the Dhamma Wheel forums?
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Re: AN 10.92: Vera Sutta — Animosity

Post by Martin Po » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:43 am

Fruit of stream-entry just let the pracitioner taste a state 100% without fear and animosity.

If at this moment he have to die he will do it without any fear at all. At this moment, if he have any enemy or some one who make him suffer, he feel no more hate, he is smiling and he want to take a pardon from this person because of his past iner hate and enmity.

When some one 100% happy, how fear or animosity (in other words greed hatred and delusion) can take root? There is no ground for such phenomenon.

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