Samadhi (best English translation?)

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Sylvester »

Nyana wrote:
Sylvester wrote:This, as most English readers would insist, must suggest that vipassanā is contemporaneous with jhāna.
Why do you continue to suggest that this is an error created by English language readers? Ven. Bodhi, Ven. Ṭhānissaro, Ven. Guṇaratana, and the entirety of the ancient Sarvāstivāda, Sautrāntika, and Yogācāra commentarial traditions all either read Pāli or other ancient Indic languages.

AGAIN? I would have thought that after my reply here - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p121270
you would come up with something substantial rather than the same tired appeal to traditional exegesis. BTW. I'm still waiting for your essay on the meaning of "samprayukta" and why it connotes temporal conjunction instead of causal conjunction. I for one, despite my misgivings about some of the later commentators, cannot believe that they could not distinguish between samprayukta and sahagata.

Speaking of which, before you launch into the Vibhaṅga Satipaṭṭhānavibhaṅga or the Dhammasaṅgaṇī Cittuppādakaṇḍa Lokuttarakusala Suddhikapaṭipadā again, I suggest you check out an often overlooked grammatical feature of the structure "...at whatever time, ...at that time" that you relied on in the previous posts. They are your well known "ya, ta" relative clauses inflected into the locative. See what Warder has to say about such relative pronoun-demonstrative pronoun clauses and why the "ta" pronoun is not necessarily a temporal locative, even if "ya" us a temporal locative. The Commentaries may interpret it as such, but the grammar (and at least one sutta that I've seen) allows otherwise. This is that future potentiality rather than contemporaneity interpretation advanced by Ven Nyanaponika and Potter.

In short, I am taking up Norman's call that a much more critical way of discussing texts is to consign the Theravāda, Sarvāstivāda and whatever other Vāda's interpretations to their specialist fields and not allow them contaminate a proper linguistic-textual-doctrinal study. If this method does not agree with you, that's fine by me. I just don't find the appeal to authority and commentarial memes very appealing. It's just too pious, and it introduces unjustifiable source bias to validate one's own inclination/understanding of a text.
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Nyana »

Sylvester wrote:In short, I am taking up Norman's call that a much more critical way of discussing texts is to consign the Theravāda, Sarvāstivāda and whatever other Vāda's interpretations to their specialist fields and not allow them contaminate a proper linguistic-textual-doctrinal study. If this method does not agree with you, that's fine by me. I just don't find the appeal to authority and commentarial memes very appealing. It's just too pious, and it introduces unjustifiable source bias to validate one's own inclination/understanding of a text.
The suttas aren't systematic expositions Sylvester. They aren't meditation manuals or epistemology treatises either. If one wants to investigate authoritative Buddhist expositions on these issues one has to look to source texts beyond the sutta collections.

With regard to vipassanā, the Theravāda and the Sarvāstivāda traditions both maintain that samatha and vipassanā are united within jhāna on the noble path. If you don't agree, then it seems to me that that's your problem.
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Sylvester »

Fair enough Geoff. I accept and agree with your proposition -
With regard to vipassanā, the Theravāda and the Sarvāstivāda traditions both maintain that samatha and vipassanā are united within jhāna on the noble path.
The operative qualifier being the perspectives of the Theravāda and the Sarvāstivāda, ie how these schools interpret their suttas and their abhidharmas. This is a doctrinal issue. If a more critical linguistic-textual dissection is not your cup of tea, that's fine with me too. As long as we acknowledge the differences in our approach, we can continue the discussion, even if we are talking at cross-purposes.
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Nyana »

Sylvester wrote:Fair enough Geoff. I accept and agree with your proposition -
:smile:
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Assaji »

Regarding the Leigh Brasington's term "Visuddhimagga jhana", - evidently it refers not to the Visuddhimagga itself, but rather to the later tradition. Similarly, much of the criticism directed at "commentaries" does not refer to the Commentaries themselves, but rather to the later scholastic interpretations.

Visuddhimagga itself is rather ambivalent on the subject of presence/absence of physical perception in rupa jhanas.

Chapter X:

"17. Of course, these [perceptions of visible objects, perceptions of sounds, perceptions of odours, perceptions of flavours, perceptions of tangible objects] are not to be found in one who has entered upon the first jhana, etc., either; for consciousness at that time does not occur by way of the five doors."

However:

"19. In fact it is because they [i.e. sensory phenomena] have not been abandoned already before this that it was said by the Blessed One that sound is a thorn to one who has the first jhana (A. v, 135). And it is precisely because they are abandoned here that the imperturbability (see Vbh. 135) of the immaterial attainments and their state of peaceful liberation are mentioned (M.i,33), and that Alara Kalama neither saw the five hundred carts that passed close by him nor heard the sound of them while he was in an immaterial attainment."

Chapter IV:

98. But when pervading (rapturous) happiness arises, the whole body is completely pervaded, like a filled bladder, like a rock cavern invaded by a huge inundation.
99. Now this fivefold happiness, when conceived and matured, perfects the twofold tranquillity, that is, bodily and mental tranquillity. When tranquillity is conceived and matured, it perfects the twofold bliss, that is, bodily and mental bliss. When bliss is conceived and matured, it perfects the threefold concentration, that is, momentary concentration, access concentration, and absorption concentration.
Of these, what is intended in this context by happiness is pervading happiness, which is the root of absorption and comes by growth into association with absorption.

However:

175. Now, as to the clause he feels bliss with his body: here, although in one actually possessed of the third jhana there is no concern about feeling bliss, nevertheless he would feel the bliss associated with his mental body, and after emerging from the jhana he would also feel bliss since his material body would have been affected by the exceedingly superior matter originated by that bliss associated with the mental body. It is in order to point to this meaning that the words 'he feels bliss with his body' are said.

So, evidently, Visuddhimagga as a text represents a transition stage between the descriptions of jhana in Vimuttimagga and in medieval scholastic texts.
Last edited by Assaji on Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Sylvester »

Thanks Dmytro. You've raised good points.

I think the explanations presented in the Vsm at paras 98-99 and 175 are a struggle to accomodate one Abhidhammic analysis (Vbh 603) of paṭighasamphassa (being limited to the 5 sense bases), versus another Abhidhammic axiom that the attainments are absent the 5 sense consciousnesses (Kv). The former has interpreted the feeling that one experiences in the kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti pericope in the same way as the dichotomy between kāyikā and cetasikā feelings. Most translators have taken the -ena case form to refer to the vanilla instrumental; however see how Warder discusses the other case relations represented by -ena, specifically when he renders kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti. I think there's something to be said for reading kāyikā as referring to hedonic tone and cetasikā to the affective sequel, as seems to be the intent in SN 36.6.

It boils down to the issue of whether mind-contact is able to experience mind-pain (dukkha) and mental/emotional/affective distress (domanassa) seperately as an option, or if they are invariably bound. I think the "invariably bound" interpretation would mean that sense-restraint would have no value, and neither would yonisomanasikāra work in the face of a subhanimitta or paṭighanimitta. We'll be left with the dreadful conclusion that once an unpleasant dhamma establishes mind-contact and gives rise to mind-pain, nimittaggāhī (one grasps at the nimitta) is inexorable and leads to the activation of paṭighānusaya which is the cause for domanassa. This bifurcation of feelings into the hedonic and the affective is not only found in SN 36.6; in the DN 2 pericope on sense restraint, we get also the conditional statement of how if nimittaggāhī hoti, it gives rise to abhijjhā domanassā not just at the 5 senses, but at the mind-base as well. This nimittaggāhī model is found many times in each Nikāya (except perhaps the SN?).

I wonder how the Vsm might have been written if those passages from the Abhidhamma concerning the 5 sense bases and rūpa (which Hamilton identifies as unfounded in the suttas) were not copied from the Sarvas.
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by frank k »

slightly off topic: is samāhita (saŋ+ādahati1) derived from the same word as samādhi [fr. saŋ+ā+dhā]? Also, is the samādahaṃ cittaṃ of anapana 16 steps derived from samādhi? How would I go about finding out the answer myself when I suspect words are related? I've been reading DPR's PED dictionary entries carefully and conjugation tables to no avail for these 3 words.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 995
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am
Contact:

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Kumara »

frank k wrote:slightly off topic: is samāhita (saŋ+ādahati1) derived from the same word as samādhi [fr. saŋ+ā+dhā]? Also, is the samādahaṃ cittaṃ of anapana 16 steps derived from samādhi? How would I go about finding out the answer myself when I suspect words are related? I've been reading DPR's PED dictionary entries carefully and conjugation tables to no avail for these 3 words.
Let me (part-)repost Dmytro's excellent reply. You can see the connections made in some dictionary entries:

Samāhita [pp. of samādahati] ...
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/p ... :3435.pali

Samādahati [saŋ+ādahati1] to put together S i.169. jotiŋ s. to kindle a fire Vin iv.115; cittaŋ s. to compose the mind, concentrate M i.116; pres. samādheti Th 2, 50; pr. part. samādahaŋ S v.312; ppr. med. samādahāna S i.169; aor 3rd pl. samādahaŋsu D ii.254. Pass. samādhiyati to be stayed, composed D i.73; M i.37; Miln 289; Caus. II. samādahāpeti Vin iv.115. -- pp. samāhita.
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/p ... :3391.pali

Here are 3 examples from the Suttas. Each comes with a set of four words. Each of the four in the 3 examples of the same root. You're interested with the last of the 4.
  • “internally the mind steadies (santiṭṭhati), settles (sannisīdati), is unified (ekodi hoti), and is composed (samādhiyati).” Kāya­gatā­sati Sutta (MN119)
  • "steadies the mind, settles it, unifies it, composes it (cittaṁ saṇṭhapeti sannisādeti ekodiṁ karoti samādahati)" Mahā·suññata Sutta (MN 122.1)
  • “How is the mind (citta) to be steadied (saṇṭhapetabbaṁ)… to be settled (sannisādetabbaṁ)… to be unified (ekodi kātabbaṁ)… to be composed (samādahātabbaṁ)?” ~ Tatiya·samādhi Sutta (AN4.94)
You can help yourself to more by looking up the references provided in the dictionary entry above. Hope that satisfies you.
duckfiasco
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:37 pm

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by duckfiasco »

Ajahn Pasanno referred to "continued attention" during a dhamma talk yesterday.
I think it helps remove some of the willful, strenuous quality that "concentration" has.
I think "concentration" also sounds more black and white: you're concentrated or you're not.
"Continued attention" reminds me of the build-up of momentum in attentiveness that has been more characteristic of my practice at least.
User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 995
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am
Contact:

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Kumara »

duckfiasco wrote:Ajahn Pasanno referred to "continued attention" during a dhamma talk yesterday.
I think it helps remove some of the willful, strenuous quality that "concentration" has.
I think "concentration" also sounds more black and white: you're concentrated or you're not.
"Continued attention" reminds me of the build-up of momentum in attentiveness that has been more characteristic of my practice at least.
That's what Sayadaw U Tejaniya (http://www.sayadawutejaniya.org) teaches too. I find much similarity between the teachings of What they teach lead to samadhi (composure/collectednes), AND wisdom. The samadhi that is developed through continuous attentiveness is very stable, very resilient. The only way you can lose it is when you indulge in defilements again.
nibbuti
Posts: 155
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:36 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by nibbuti »

Kumara wrote:samadhi (composure/collectednes)
+1

'Sammlung' in German also means collection, composure or mental collectedness.

This translation avoids the two extremes of 'concentration' and 'tranquility'.

:yingyang:
User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 995
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am
Contact:

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Kumara »

Dmytro wrote:Regarding the Leigh Brasington's term "Visuddhimagga jhana", - evidently it refers not to the Visuddhimagga itself, but rather to the later tradition. Similarly, much of the criticism directed at "commentaries" does not refer to the Commentaries themselves, but rather to the later scholastic interpretations.

Visuddhimagga itself is rather ambivalent on the subject of presence/absence of physical perception in rupa jhanas.

... ...

So, evidently, Visuddhimagga as a text represents a transition stage between the descriptions of jhana in Vimuttimagga and in medieval scholastic texts.
Allow me to add another:

80. Herein, quite secluded from sense desires means having secluded himself
from, having become without, having gone away from, sense desires....

83. But this term “sense desires” should be regarded as including all kinds,
that is to say, sense desires as object as given in the Niddesa in the passage
beginning, “What are sense desires as object? They are agreeable visible objects
…” (Nidd I 1)

From: PATH OF PURIFICATION Part 2: Concentration (Samádhi), CHAPTER IV The Earth Kasina
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Sylvester »

Bhante

Don't forget the continuation of the Mahāniddesa definition of kāmā "as object" (vatthu) -
Api ca atītā kāmā anāgatā kāmā paccuppannā kāmā; ajjhattā kāmā bahiddhā kāmā ajjhattabahiddhā kāmā; hīnā kāmā majjhimā kāmā paṇītā kāmā; āpāyikā kāmā mānusikā kāmā dibbā kāmā paccupaṭṭhitā kāmā; nimmitā kāmā animmitā kāmā paranimmitā kāmā; pariggahitā kāmā, apariggahitā kāmā, mamāyitā kāmā, amamāyitā kāmā; sabbepi kāmāvacarā dhammā, sabbepi rūpāvacarā dhammā, sabbepi arūpāvacarā dhammā, taṇhāvatthukā taṇhārammaṇā kāmanīyaṭṭhena rajanīyaṭṭhena madanīyaṭṭhena kāmā – ime vuccanti vatthukāmā.
For the hellish (āpāyikā) kāmā, I wonder if there's any hope for anything agreeable down there, when hellish feelings are said to be exclusively painful (or is hell populated by masochists?). This extended definition goes beyond the "agreeable" and "enticing" (rajanīya) to whatever is amamāyitā = that which is disliked. Or is this definition presenting some guilt-conflicted emotions? Sabbepi kāmāvacarā dhammā would of course refer to all of the constituents of the sensual world (as understood by the Abhidhamma).

Do you seriously take the Mahāniddesa definitions of kāmā "as object" (vatthu)? Does it fit in with the MN 13 presentation of kāmā?
User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 995
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am
Contact:

Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Kumara »

Sylvester wrote:Do you seriously take the Mahāniddesa definitions of kāmā "as object" (vatthu)? Does it fit in with the MN 13 presentation of kāmā?
You seem to be taking what I quoted as agreement. If you refer to what I was referring to, you'd probably see that I was just adding to what Dmytro's posting on the ambivalence on jhāna in the Visuddhimagga.
User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 995
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am
Contact:

Draft ready for feedback -- Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Kumara »

Dmytro wrote:Evidently further discussion will have to wait until the publication of the book.
I'm pretty much done with the book. Now seeking feedback on accuracy. I invite people deep in the suttas and meditation to PM me with your email address for the draft.
Last edited by Kumara on Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply