Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 1933
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by BlackBird » Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:23 pm

Just one Bhante Gavesako now huh :)

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3375
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by Mr Man » Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:14 pm

Ven, Gavesako, Have you seen how many hits that video clip has received in just one day?

Reading the first anecdote in your link, Ajahn Thate says "They take the sort of vision that I have just mentioned as genuine, as truly signifying that they had been husband and wife in a previous life", which seems to contradict the introduction by the blogger.

:anjali:

User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1740
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by gavesako » Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:13 pm

This story has been front page news in Thai media and it comes as a shock to see a well-known monk married so quickly after leaving the robes. Some of his followers feel it is too much too soon. So the way to justify it in terms of the 'pubbe sannivasa' concept is understandable, given the Thai belief in kamma and previous life connections.

However, like with any other belief, it can be grasped wrongly as we can see from the following case:
Lovestruck man nabbed for kidnap of ‘wife from three previous lives’
The engineer said three soothsayer monks agreed he and the doctor were bound by destiny.
They assured him Dr. Pen-ampai was a reincarnation of his wife in his previous three lives. She had committed suicide because he had cheated on her in the last one, he said.
He said he was not mentally ill and regretted causing her any trouble. ...

http://thaibuddhism.net/sanity.htm
Also, as Ajahn Jayasaro pointed out, there is no a priori reason why, after being together for so many lives already, one should not decide to quit rather than continue this endless cycle. (There is in fact a Sutta in which a virtuous couple ask the Buddha how they could meet again in the future life, and he instructs them to cultivate the same level of the virtues which will draw them together again.)

This one is the locus classicus for 'pubbe sannivasa' in the 20th century Thai monk literature:

Ajahn Mun's The Spiritual Partner - touching story
http://thaiforesttradition.blogspot.com ... rtner.html
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by binocular » Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:08 pm

forestmat wrote:Really none of my business, but seems pretty quick to me to get married only days (20 to be precise) after having been a monk for 38 Pansaa.
To this to a woman who is in the business of investing in medicine to combat the aging process!
The woman who revealed on her Facebook page she is the person closest to former Phra Mitsuo, whose real name is Mitsuo Shibahashi, is Suttirat Muttamara, 52. She is a sister of Democrat MP Vithayen Muttamara and also chairwoman of Q Medical Centre Co which in 2011 announced the investment of up to one billion baht to build a hospital to combat the ageing process.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/learning/lea ... ok-reveals
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

User avatar
purple planet
Posts: 653
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:07 am
Location: Israel

Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by purple planet » Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:28 pm

That is why he was so popular with laypeople, but not with monks.
I think this important to whoever reads this story and gets doubts - that he was a bit controversial even before leaving

manas
Posts: 2471
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by manas » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:20 am

purple planet wrote:
That is why he was so popular with laypeople, but not with monks.
I think this important to whoever reads this story and gets doubts - that he was a bit controversial even before leaving
The teachers I most respect are also regarded as 'a bit controversial'. Sometimes I wonder who is there, who is totally free from any controversy? (Other than the Buddha himself, that is!)

metta
:anjali:

User avatar
purple planet
Posts: 653
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:07 am
Location: Israel

Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by purple planet » Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:40 am

Ohh what i wanted to write but decided to leave it - that even the buddha had lots of critics and haters

its just a little comforting to know that some monks have an explanation to how a monk that was a monk so long and was a teacher of others just leaves it - and that the reason would be because he didnt meditate the right way

User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1740
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by gavesako » Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:29 pm

A woman, who has been the subject of speculation in previous weeks as the reason for renowned Japanese abbot Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leaving the monkhood, has introduced herself publicly through her Facebook page.
A single mother, 51-year-old Suttirat "Ann" Muttamara runs a widely known medical beauty centre. Her Facebook page carries a number of undated photos showing her posing with the former monk, now wearing normal clothes. ...

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/nationa ... 09337.html

There are still some rumours going around about the disrobing circumstances and her role in it. :spy:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations

Bankei
Posts: 430
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:40 am

Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by Bankei » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:34 pm

Mitsuo while a monk wrote many books which became popular. I recall one with the title "Thais are Kind". I wonder what will happen to the royalties from these books and the other wealth he built up as a monk.

Bankei
-----------------------
Bankei

chownah
Posts: 7596
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by chownah » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:36 am

Does anyone know what the difference is between a regular beauty center and a medical beauty center?
chownah

User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1740
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by gavesako » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:48 pm

Bankei wrote:Mitsuo while a monk wrote many books which became popular. I recall one with the title "Thais are Kind". I wonder what will happen to the royalties from these books and the other wealth he built up as a monk.
Bankei
It is a bit unfortunate that his disrobing coincided with other scandals involving Thai monks recently. But they should be kept well apart, after all Ajahn Mitsuo was never accused of any wrongdoing against the Vinaya while he was a monk, just the opposite: he was one of the inspiring monks of the forest tradition who tried to help various social projects as well. They did not sell his books, they were always sponsored for free distribution as is the rule in Ajahn Chah's monasteries. He could not amass personal wealth in private accounts either, although he probably still has his old followers who will now supprt him if he continues to teach as a layman.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations

User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1740
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by gavesako » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:25 pm

This is a really good reflection on the current events in the Sangha:


The problem with getting attached to things
Veena Thoopkrajae


The latest controversies involving monks have made many Thai people despair. Is Buddhism deteriorating because of the increasing number of misbehaving monks? Is the Lord Buddha's philosophy failing to enlighten the current generation of monks?
Before we all jump the gun, let's dig into the issue and seek the answers in simple dharma. Maybe the scandals are a blessing in disguise, if we adhere to the basic rule of karma - whatever happened, happened for a reason, and is the consequence of our collective actions, of our good and bad karma.
...
Many people express their sorrow and frustration about Mitsuo on social media, and many portray his wife as the villain. The thing is, the matter has gone beyond the point of return. "Live in the present," is another of the Lord Buddha's teachings. We may have to re-examine ourselves: if the monk was a car carrying us along the path to enlightenment, the car has broken down. All we have to do is take another car on the same path. Using plain Buddhist philosophy, you detach your thoughts of him as a monk, and move on.

Non-attachment is at times a rather tricky Buddhist concept because it seems so easy to follow as a principle; but in reality it can be so difficult to follow. The sadness of losing a teacher like Phra Mitsuo can well demonstrate the consequences of such attachment. "Whenever we attach, we are unhappy, and when we can detach, we are free from suffering," the late Buddhadasa has said.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion ... 09812.html
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations

User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 1933
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by BlackBird » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:54 pm

some journalist wrote:if we adhere to the basic rule of karma - whatever happened, happened for a reason, and is the consequence of our collective actions, of our good and bad karma.
I don't think that's what the Buddha taught about Kamma one little bit. That seems like fatalism to me, if not well intentioned fatalism.

It is Pubbekatahetuditthi nevertheless, and that is a wrong view. I have sent the author a nicely worded email asking for a minor correction.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks

User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1740
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by gavesako » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:57 pm

I think people might have misunderstood what she wants to say: She is addressing the kind of 'guru worship' that tends to happen in Thailand, whereby great numbers of Buddhists 'empower' a single individual (with expressions of their faith and financial donations, this is the 'collective karma') and then, when that individual falls from grace, they inevitably reap despair and disappoinment.
Last edited by gavesako on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations

Bankei
Posts: 430
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:40 am

Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by Bankei » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:54 am

Yes, I agree the Mitsuo and Nenkham matters are completely different.

It is interesting, though, how fast Mitsuo married after disrobing. I have seen this happen, or similar happen, a few times with Thai monks. There is nothing wrong with this sort of thing, but I imagine the woman starts to get 'close' to the monk, going to see him often, talking often. They may get to know each others personal situation a bit from talking. The monk then starts to think, what if I disrobed... perhaps nothing is said to the woman until after they are a layman again and then suddenly they are a couple.

I knew one monk who had a woman come and visit him everyday in his kuti - outside and not alone. She would ring him every night. He disrobed and suddenly they were together within hours. About 6 months later I went back to that temple and the guy was a monk again. I think the girl dumped him, probably broke his heart too!
-----------------------
Bankei

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], easydoesit, Majestic-12 [Bot], Sobhana, Spaciousness and 84 guests