the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:59 pm

I am undoubtedly going in circles here, but it's together with you, so I don't mind. We keep each other company.

lol this whole thread goes in circles

Wish it would just be locked
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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:06 pm

Now, I don't really care if people take on a meaning of 'birth' to use it as a skillful teaching. And of course I also don't mind if people don't accept rebirth. But to imply that momentary 'birth' it is what the Buddha was on about, no, that doesn't hold. The above sutta should clear that up.

Yet
"When the uninstructed wordling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance contact, "I am" occurs to him; "I am" this occurs to him...."
Taken from SN ways of regarding things, page 885 in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation sutta 47

Which ties into the above post of if there is ignorance, then we grasp which leads to "birth" of a being

"I am" is a sense of "Self", of "being"



I would be interested to hear where you think the sense of "I am" comes from

Dont we experience "I am" when we cling? So clinging gives birth to "I am"

"I am a naughty annihilationist posing as a Buddhist" :guns:

This is clinging to the body and to a view, that gives birth to "Self" as ...
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by reflection » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:21 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Yet here


http://www.vipassana.info/037-culatanha ... tta-e1.htm

Dependent Origination is clearly stated as occurring in moment, every time there is holding to feelings
It's easy to misinterpret the present tense in Pali as if it is occuring right now. But it can also describe things that occur in a general sense. As an example: "From eating bad food, comes sickness" This is not to say, if I eat bad food now, I get sick immediately. It may be tomorrow, or in a week. So when the suttas say "from A comes B" it is not necessarily in the same moment. It just says that for those craving (holding) there will arise existence (being), and there will arise birth. Not now, but when they die.

Yet
..
Which ties into the above post of if there is ignorance, then we grasp which leads to "birth" of a being
My Pali is very ridumentary, so somebody should correct me if I'm wrong, but reading the Pali version it does not seem to use the word "jati" (birth), so to imply that here it refers to the birth in dependent origination, is taking a lot of freedom of interpretation... I'd rather trust the definition the suttas give themselves. Which, you have to admit, is quite clearly not about "I am".

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:23 pm

It's easy to misinterpret the present tense in Pali as if it is occuring right now. But it can also describe things that occur in a general sense. As an example: "From eating bad food, comes sickness" This is not to say, if I eat bad food now, I get sick immediately. It may be tomorrow, or in a week. So when the suttas say "from A comes B" it is not necessarily in the same moment. It just says that for those craving (holding) there will arise existence (being), and there will arise birth. Not now, but when they die.
The two sutta quotes I have provided clearly show that when there is ignorance, we cling and give a rise to self

Straightforward reading of the sutta :reading:

Its also the way of understanding the Suttas I get from ajahn's as well

You read it differently then thats fine

Everything I can say I already have in this thread :broke: (both now and in past lives where I posted ;) )

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by reflection » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:29 pm

clw_uk wrote: I would be interested to hear where you think the sense of "I am" comes from
"I am" comes from self view, from ignorance/delusion. To that I agree.

But there are other things arising from delusion. You seem to assume because"I am" arises out of it, so that can be the only thing that arises out of it. And so that must mean dependent origination also speaks about that, and another step you take, every time "birth" is used it is not literal.

Well, that's a very quick assumption that doesn't hold if you analyse what dependent origination is about by the very sutta that defines its terms. There is no mention of "I am" or even conceit there at all. It says delusion gives rise to fabrications, which don't have to be the thought "I am".
Last edited by reflection on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:33 pm

"I am" comes from self view, from ignorance/delusion. To that I agree.

But there are other things arising from delusion. You seem to assume because"I am" arises out of it, so that must mean dependent origination also speaks about that, and so another step you take, every time "birth" is used it is not literal. That's a very quick assumption that doesn't hold if you analyse what dependent origination is about by the very sutta that defines its terms. There is no mention of "I am" or even conceit there at all.
Of course it does

"I am" or sense of self is anicca, its not always there

It arises due to ignorance based contact which gives rise to clinging, so its born when there is clinging. "I dont like this feeling"

not difficult to read D.O. in this way and it does make sense from experience


When we see clearly then we dont cling, there is no more sense of self so we dont identify. Birth of identity has stopped and there is no more dukkha
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:38 pm

"Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death.

"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent (into the mother's womb), coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.
Is that part of the original sutta?

And I read here the definition of birth and ageing in all its forms

birth of of the aggregates, birth of "I am" in moments etc

ageing of aggregates, decay of "I am" in moments etc


Now I'm going to guess you wont agree with this reading, however this reading leads away from dukkha so is it not worth reading it that way?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by reflection » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:52 pm

clw_uk wrote:
"Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death.

"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent (into the mother's womb), coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.
Is that part of the original sutta?

And I read here the definition of birth and ageing in all its forms

birth of of the aggregates, birth of "I am" in moments etc

ageing of aggregates, decay of "I am" in moments etc


Now I'm going to guess you wont agree with this reading, however this reading leads away from dukkha so is it not worth reading it that way?
I edited it in, that's why it is bracketed, like [sense] also was edited in by the translator to clarify.

Birth of aggregates is literal birth. For one thing, because one of the aggregates, it doesn't arise all the time: "this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more." (SN 12.61). And about "acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings", you are suggesting "I am" arises in various groups of beings? As in, animals, humans etc.

Likewise, the part about death, it's even more clear: "decline of life-force, completion of time, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty ".. don't you think it is all very obvious? Now how would the 'birth' "I am" logically lead to this literal death? It doesn't.

To imply something leads away from dukkha must be the right reading is of course not a good argument. But as I said before, I don't mind people reinterpreting things so they can use it skillfully. But what I do mind is presenting the Buddha's word or the suttas as if this is the only interpretation and the right one, while the evidence is clearly against it. And that's not only this sutta, but the many,many other times the suttas speak about rebirth.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:54 pm

I edited it in, that's why it is bracketed, like [sense] also was edited in by the translator to clarify.

So you put your own spin on the sutta

:thinking:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:57 pm

clw_uk wrote:
I am undoubtedly going in circles here, but it's together with you, so I don't mind. We keep each other company.

lol this whole thread goes in circles

Wish it would just be locked
Oh, yes. You made the same arguments and you went through the same denials as you are doing now when it was shown quite clearly that the Buddha taught literal rebirth.

We could lock this thread, but the same stuff would just pop up again and again. So, it best to keep it confined to one place. For those who are interested you can go back fairly early in this thread to see clw_uk's arguments.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:57 pm

clw_uk wrote:
I edited it in, that's why it is bracketed, like [sense] also was edited in by the translator to clarify.

So you put your own spin on the sutta

:thinking:
As do you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:01 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
I edited it in, that's why it is bracketed, like [sense] also was edited in by the translator to clarify.

So you put your own spin on the sutta

:thinking:
As do you.

Do we all?
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reflection
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by reflection » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:04 pm

clw_uk wrote:
I edited it in, that's why it is bracketed, like [sense] also was edited in by the translator to clarify.

So you put your own spin on the sutta

:thinking:
It's just a clarification of a single term, which is clearly bracketed. That's not a spin on the sutta. Also, since it's bracketed, people can leave it aside. So do so if you want to. But to give credit where it is due, it's not mine, it is Ajahn Brahmavamso's clarification which I decided to include, because I think it makes sense in light of the rest of the sutta.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:07 pm

reflection wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
I edited it in, that's why it is bracketed, like [sense] also was edited in by the translator to clarify.

So you put your own spin on the sutta

:thinking:
It's just a clarification of a single term, which is clearly bracketed. That's not a spin on the sutta. Also, since it's bracketed, people can leave it aside. So do so if you want to. But to give credit where it is due, it's not mine, it is Ajahn Brahmavamso's clarification which I decided to include.

Then why say you edited it in :/

It's a clarification with a certain interpretation, or spin on it


My point is we all interpret the suttas and have our own spin on them in various ways. The main thing is if we are all aiming for giving rise to understanding in there here and now and abandoning craving in the here and now, then it's all good

As I said before in the end we have to let go of everything, even all view points
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by manas » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:15 pm

If there is total annihilation after death, then both the one who strived, and the one who did not, both have ceased to exist or to enjoy or suffer anything. So the way I see it, we might as well strive, because even if we were to drink in delightful, intense sensual pleasures for our entire lives, party hard and deny ourselves nothing, we would still end up in the same place anyway - absent, non-existent. All of that pleasure, where would it be then? Gone forever. So we might as well frame our lives as though there is literal rebirth, because truthfully most of us don't know for sure, but it would be a hell of a mistake to assume there is not, and then be proved wrong as one is actually dying, finally wishing one had restrained oneself more, and meditated more during one's life. "Alas, if only I had framed my life as though there was literal rebirth, I might have partied less, and renounced more."

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:anjali:
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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