Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
SarathW
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by SarathW » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:46 am

lyndon taylor wrote:What about neutering and spaying humans, seems like a good idea to me, as long as its voluntary!!!

Thanks.
But why voluntary? Is that, because we think that human are better than animals?
I would have asked “Why don’t we neuter or spay mosquitoes and flies as well?”
We should leave animal alone. Do not interfere with them.
I am very sorry to disagree with many of my well respected friends but this is just my opinion.
I am quite used to see sick animals. They help me to even be firmer in my practice for the path. I think, what if I am an animal like this in my next birth?
Having said that, I would have neuter or spayed an animal due to some social concerns. However I am not going to sit here and defend and justify my wrong doing.
By the way I do not have any pets for this very reason. When I was young I had many pets. I looked after them when they were sick. But I let them die with their own course.
I love animals.
:heart:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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BlackBird
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by BlackBird » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:01 am

SarathW wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:What about neutering and spaying humans, seems like a good idea to me, as long as its voluntary!!!
I would have asked “Why don’t we neuter or spay mosquitoes and flies as well?”
They're working on that.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... laria.html
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

SarathW
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by SarathW » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:23 am

BlackBird wrote:
SarathW wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:What about neutering and spaying humans, seems like a good idea to me, as long as its voluntary!!!
I would have asked “Why don’t we neuter or spay mosquitoes and flies as well?”
They're working on that.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... laria.html
Someone is always step ahead of me :)
By the way please read this:

"And what are the effluents that are to be abandoned by tolerating? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, endures. He tolerates cold, heat, hunger, & thirst; the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles; ill-spoken, unwelcome words; & bodily feelings that, when they arise, are painful, racking, sharp, piercing, disagreeable, displeasing, & menacing to life. The effluents, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to tolerate these things do not arise for him when he tolerates them. These are called the effluents that are to be abandoned by tolerating."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... part2.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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BlackBird
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by BlackBird » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:58 am

SarathW wrote: "And what are the effluents that are to be abandoned by tolerating? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, endures. He tolerates cold, heat, hunger, & thirst; the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles; ill-spoken, unwelcome words; & bodily feelings that, when they arise, are painful, racking, sharp, piercing, disagreeable, displeasing, & menacing to life. The effluents, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to tolerate these things do not arise for him when he tolerates them. These are called the effluents that are to be abandoned by tolerating."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... part2.html
SarathW wrote: There is the case where a monk

And here you have an important distinction. Much more is expected from the Buddha for his monks than that which he expects of lay people. When I was younger and very keen and passionate about ordaining, I was staying in Bodhinyanarama in Wellington and I was very passionate about austerities and such like, I would deny myself all kinds of comforts that were on hand, for a time I was living more austere than the monks. I wore myself out in the end through all my austerities and had to readjust to a more comfortable middle ground in order to continue making progress.

So I'm always careful to point out whenever anyone quotes the passage you have above, that such things should be developed over time and only really for those who are intent on fast tracking their way to Nibbana. As for enduring mosquito bites, I did that very thing in Sri Lanka in Meetirigala in the middle of the forest, my legs ended up looking like a pizza, some of the monks would stop and go "Ohhh! Look at those legs!" and they would come up and examine my legs and it was fascinating to them. Apparently the mosquitos don't like the Singhalese blood as much, apparently it has something to do with the smell that us humans put out, mosquitos can smell us, and some smells are more attractive than others. One of the monks knew of this also and suggested that the mosquitos there preferred Suddhas (white person) blood as it must have had different characteristics to the native Singhalese in the area. It was actually kind of dangerous to go without deet now that I think about it, because there were mosquitos present in the area that carried Dengue fever, Malaria & Jap Encephalitis - It was quite uncommon, but it happened from time to time and a few people in the area got Dengue each year and occasionally someone came down with Malaria. After some time I went back to wearing mosquito repellent and decided this was one thing that didn't need to be mindfully endured. Frankly, it was hard to meditate when you can hear the mosquitos buzzing around, landing on you - In your ear, on your nose, just about everywhere, and then the incessant itching that follows.

Now regarding genetically modifying mosquitos so they can't breed? I see absolutely no problem with this. Mosquitos are the cause of much suffering in this world,, and genetically modifying them is not killing, therefore it's a much better solution than spraying large swathes of land with chemicals to kill them (and inadvertent kill other insects or beings or at least make them sick). Types of mosquitos who are a vector for any disease at all should be made infertile, it's the perfect solution.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

dagon
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by dagon » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:22 am

Ben wrote:Jack - I agree with you entirely. I also witnessed similar scenes in Myanmar. Really awful stuff.
When i lived in Rangoon what would happen is that the dogs were rounded up every so often, put in sacks alive and dumped in to river at the end of the jetty.

SarathW
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by SarathW » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:40 am

Hi Blackbird
I think you and I have lot of thing in common except, that you went from city to the jungle and I came from jungle to the city. I do not have any practical experience which you have but I just realise these problems through deduction.
Buddha never asked us to chase snakes or mosquitoes. In fact he said that the best environment for the meditater is a place free from all these problems.
--------------------------------
§ 52. These are the five factors for exertion. Which five?
[2] The monk is free from illness & discomfort, endowed with good digestion — not too cold, not too hot, of moderate strength — fit for exertion.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... part2.html
--------------------------------------
That is why I tell people that the best place to meditate is behind closed doors!
I do not like manipulating nature too much. I think we are digging a big hole and one day we will not be able to come out of it. Eg: Antibiotics
I think mosquitoes are here for a reason and they will be extinct when the time is right.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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BlackBird
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by BlackBird » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:00 am

SarathW wrote: I think mosquitoes are here for a reason and they will be extinct when the time is right.
Hi Sarath, that's where we differ, you see I don't think there's any reason for Sangsara at all, nor individual variations of animals or insects. Naturally from an environmental perspective there are some species we should preserve. There are many delicate ecosystems that require certain species to maintain the balance. Malaria vector mosquitos are not among this group. We're not talking about the extinction of all mosquitos, just the species that are vectors for serious diseases. There are a large number of different types of mosquitos and we're only talking about the extinction of a few of those.

I find it interesting that you interpret that there is a 'reason' for mosquitos being around. Out of interest do you think there is a meaning to a lot of thing? Is there meaning to this life or this universe.


Personally I follow the Buddha's reasoning on this one: That the only true purpose in existence is to realize nibbana. Thus our world, and all other worlds in the universe are a matter of chaotic evolution, and there is no 'reason' per say for anything.

That's just my view though, I feel it accords with the Buddha's teachings, but I do not mean to denigrate others views on the matter :)

with metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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appicchato
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by appicchato » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:07 am

All for it...

SarathW
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:10 am

Hi BB
You said:
“That the only true purpose in existence is to realize nibbana.”
Where did you get this idea from?
Please leave your reply in the following link. I don’t want to side track the OP.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=16076
Thanks
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:12 am

appicchato wrote:All for it...
Do you mean human animal too? :)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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manas
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by manas » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:49 am

BlackBird wrote:
SarathW wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:What about neutering and spaying humans, seems like a good idea to me, as long as its voluntary!!!
I would have asked “Why don’t we neuter or spay mosquitoes and flies as well?”
They're working on that.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... laria.html
There's a risk that, by interfering with Nature in this way, we end up doing more harm than good, in the long run. If this plan really does only impact upon the mosquitoes that carry malaria, then it might be acceptable, at least from a human perspective, to totally eliminate them. But if it somehow ended up impacting on other types of mosquitoes as well, then the many small mammals that rely on mosquitoes for food, such as some bats, would go extinct along with the mosquitoes. We should proceed with extreme caution before willfully making any species extinct, even the ones that cause us disease. When human beings meddle with Nature, they usually end up making things worse. All species of this planet exist in a complex and interconnected Web of Life, and the more we reduce biodiversity (as a rule), the more that intricate balance gets disrupted. We should know this by now.

:anjali:
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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BlackBird
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by BlackBird » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:30 am

SarathW wrote:Hi BB
You said:
“That the only true purpose in existence is to realize nibbana.”
Where did you get this idea from?
Please leave your reply in the following link. I don’t want to side track the OP.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=16076
Thanks
:)
I have responded. I would appreciate it if you answered my question though, ideally in our new thread:
Out of interest do you think there is a meaning to a lot of thing? Is there meaning to this life or this universe?
metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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appicchato
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by appicchato » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:51 am

SarathW wrote:
appicchato wrote:All for it...
Do you mean human animal too? :)
Earth's human population is on the short list of things that will (if the current trend continues) doom us sooner rather than later...it's a proposition (to me) definitely worth considering... :pig:

barcsimalsi
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by barcsimalsi » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:04 pm

I'd like to share a revelation that I’ve had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species, and I realised that humans are not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment; but you humans do not. Instead you multiply, and multiply, until every resource is consumed. The only way for you to survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern... a virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer on this planet, you are a plague, and we... are the cure.
Says Agent Smith.
Looks like humans are the one needs to be spayed first...

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manas
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Re: Should We Neuter or Spay Animals?

Post by manas » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:37 pm

barcsimalsi wrote:
I'd like to share a revelation that I’ve had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species, and I realised that humans are not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment; but you humans do not. Instead you multiply, and multiply, until every resource is consumed. The only way for you to survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern... a virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer on this planet, you are a plague, and we... are the cure.
Says Agent Smith.
Looks like humans are the one needs to be spayed first...
Large scale sterilization might help to reduce the burgeoning and utterly unsustainable growth of human population. People could be offered substantial cash incentives to have the procedure done (which should always be completely voluntary). They could then use the money to gain better access to education, which could improve their lives and the planet, rather then just popping out yet more humans. If we don't correct ourselves, eventual food shortages, hunger, disease and starvation will. So it would save a lot of pain and trouble if we started on such a program now, imo.

:anjali:
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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