the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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LG2V
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by LG2V » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:00 pm

I believe this to be true. I've had some health problems clear up after switching to a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet. I think it also helps one avoid many of the dangers of intestinal/bodily parasites. That being said, I still haven't found a way to consume a completely vegan diet and maintain adequate energy levels, although I'd like to. Though, in my case the issue is complicated by food allergies.

EDIT: Corrected a typo.
Last edited by LG2V on Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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alan
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by alan » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:58 pm

Healthy people live longer. They eat the appropriate amount of meat.
They also lift weights and do yoga. Healthy people make it their business to know what is right for the body--they don't subscribe to any one school of thought, they do what works.

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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by lyndon taylor » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:24 pm

But the study is comparing healthy people who eat meat, to healthy people that don't, and the ones that don't live some years longer. The SDA church encourages all their members to eat healthily, whether they are vegetarian or not, and that's who the stduy is based on.
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daverupa
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by daverupa » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:08 pm

The study allowed "vegetarians" to define those who also ate seafood, eggs, and dairy, which I found interesting since many vegetarians argue against those aspects of diet as well.

It seems only the landwalking meats were a problem; get them in egg form or swimming around, and there was no difference between that diet and a strict veggie one.
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by lyndon taylor » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:56 pm

Vegetarian by definition can eat eggs and dairy, its vegan that don't. The study did not compare vegetarian to vegan, as I imagine there are too few vegan SDAs to make a study.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

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daverupa
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by daverupa » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:58 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:Vegetarian by definition can eat eggs and dairy, its vegan that don't.
Ah ha, I see.
The study did not compare vegetarian to vegan, as I imagine there are too few vegan SDAs to make a study.
Well, from the abstract:
Diet was assessed at baseline by a quantitative food frequency questionnaire and categorized into 5 dietary patterns: nonvegetarian, semi-vegetarian, pesco-vegetarian, lacto-ovo–vegetarian, and vegan.
In more detail:
Dietary patterns were determined according to the reported intake of foods of animal origin. Thus,

vegans consumed eggs/dairy, fish, and all other meats less than 1 time/mo;
lacto-ovo–vegetarians consumed eggs/dairy 1 time/mo or more but fish and all other meats less than 1 time/mo;
pesco-vegetarians consumed fish 1 time/mo or more but all other meats less than 1 time/mo;
semi-vegetarians consumed nonfish meats 1 time/mo or more and all meats combined (fish included) 1 time/mo or more but no more than 1 time/wk;
and last, nonvegetarians consumed nonfish meats 1 time/mo or more and all meats combined (fish included) more than 1 time/wk.

For some analyses, the 4 vegetarian categories (vegan, lacto-ovo–vegetarian, pesco-vegetarian, and semi-vegetarian) were combined as “vegetarian.”
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by lyndon taylor » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:25 pm

I think if you look at the sample size of the different groups, you'll see the prevalence of the different groups among SDAs'

Obviously their combining of four categories like that is not very well thought out.

I still don't think the study compared vegan to vegetarian, but rather lumped them together, in all my experience being raised strict vegetarian SDA in Loma Linda where the study was based, I've never heard of SDA vegans like you do in traditional vegetarian groups, its all based on the teachings of their founder and she never said anything against eating eggs and dairy, as far as I know, so like I said I would predict any study based on SDAs is going to have a very small sample of vegans, and about 50% true lacto ovo vegetarians.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by lyndon taylor » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:44 pm

I should point out that SDA teachings have nothing whatsoever to do with reducing suffering for animals, and everything to do with personal health. In fact Loma Linda University Medical Centre has had and has one of the biggest animal experimentation facilities in Southern California, they actually kept Chimps locked up in small cages just so dental students could practise oral surgery, and all their infant heart surgery was practised on sheep, Brain surgery experiments done on stray cats etc etc etc.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Mojo
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Mojo » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:57 am

Mojo wrote:I'm considering moving from an ovo-lacto vegetarian diet to a vegan one. I'm going to discuss it wit my doctor at my next physical.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Jhana4 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:25 pm

Image
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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clw_uk
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by clw_uk » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:35 pm

This has probably been raised before, but what about lab grown meat?
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Jhana4
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Jhana4 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:26 pm

clw_uk wrote:This has probably been raised before, but what about lab grown meat?
If it becomes a consumer reality it will be a step forward ethically. It would likely still be a health issue.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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Ben
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ben » Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:01 pm

clw_uk wrote:This has probably been raised before, but what about lab grown meat?
Hi Craig,

By lab-grown meat, I assume you are referring to the animal tissue that was artificially synthesized and then widely reported in the media a few weeks back? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23576143)
The key questions for me is whether the tissue was sentient and if sentient, whether the act of eating killed the being/s.
My understanding of the production of the meat is that individual muscle cells are grown in a growth media - similar in the way that Quorn is manufactured. Does lab-grown meat possess sentience? I think it highly unlikely. Does one kill the meat when eating it? I think it is most likely that the life-cycle of the lab-grown tissue would have ceased long before it reaches the supermarket. In my humble opinion, I would rate it as kammically 'active' as purchasing and eating Quorn.

I agree with Jhana4 in that it is less of an ethical issue than it is a health issue.
kind regards,

Ben
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Jhana4
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Jhana4 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:58 pm

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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Aloka
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Aloka » Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:45 pm

I've always found it difficult to understand why humans have ever imagined that other living beings don't feel shock and pain when they're boiled alive, killed in slaughterhouses, skinned alive, caught in traps, hunted, experimented on etc etc.

.

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