the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ben
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Vegetarians live longer

Post by Ben » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:50 am

People who follow a vegetarian diet can enjoy an almost 12 per cent lower mortality rate than their meat loving counterparts, a new study has found. The study, published in JAMA Internal Medicine in June, followed 70,000 members of the Seventh Day Adventist Church over a six year period.
"Vegetarian diets are associated with lower all-cause mortality and with some reductions in cause-specific mortality," the authors concluded. "Results appeared to be more robust in males. These favorable associations should be considered carefully by those offering dietary guidance."


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/diet ... z2XNCu3w80
This is indeed interesting news.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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retrofuturist
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:52 am

Greetings,
The Age wrote:
People who follow a vegetarian diet can enjoy an almost 12 per cent lower mortality rate than their meat loving counterparts, a new study has found.
So only 88% of vegetarians die?

:jumping:

Metta,
Retro. :)
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manas
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by manas » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:02 am

Yes, statistically this is true. In particular, I would encourage members to look up the connection between beef consumption, and bowel cancers. Even if one does eat meat, it might be worth considering eliminating red meat from the diet. Those colon bags attached to the body after surgery are not nice...really.

If one still feels compelled to eat red meat, it might help to have, at the same meal, a large (fibre-rich) serving of veggies and salad, to help push it through the colon, so I've heard. We don't want it putrefying in the bowels. But I would still recommend eliminating it entirely.

metta
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reflection
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by reflection » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:03 am

While I'm all for vegetarianism, those studies only show correlations. It doesn't show it is the diet per se that makes one live longer. Vegetarians in general also smoke and drink less, I think sport more, and in other ways are more conscious about their health.

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Ben
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by Ben » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:20 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
The Age wrote:
People who follow a vegetarian diet can enjoy an almost 12 per cent lower mortality rate than their meat loving counterparts, a new study has found.
So only 88% of vegetarians die?

:jumping:

Metta,
Retro. :)
Oh, you are so funny!
All vegetarians die, Paul.
The study found that their mortality compared to non vegetarians is 12 percent lower.

A longer life to experience more dukkha or engage in Dhamma practice.
Relection wrote:While I'm all for vegetarianism, those studies only show correlations. It doesn't show it is the diet per se that makes one live longer. Vegetarians in general also smoke and drink less, I think sport more, and in other ways are more conscious about their health.
Diet was assessed at baseline by a quantitative food frequency questionnaire and categorized into 5 dietary patterns: nonvegetarian, semi-vegetarian, pesco-vegetarian, lacto-ovo–vegetarian, and vegan.

There were 2570 deaths among 73 308 participants during a mean follow-up time of 5.79 years. The mortality rate was 6.05 (95% CI, 5.82-6.29) deaths per 1000 person-years. The adjusted hazard ratio (HR) for all-cause mortality in all vegetarians combined vs nonvegetarians was 0.88 (95% CI, 0.80-0.97). The adjusted HR for all-cause mortality in vegans was 0.85 (95% CI, 0.73-1.01); in lacto-ovo–vegetarians, 0.91 (95% CI, 0.82-1.00); in pesco-vegetarians, 0.81 (95% CI, 0.69-0.94); and in semi-vegetarians, 0.92 (95% CI, 0.75-1.13) compared with nonvegetarians. Significant associations with vegetarian diets were detected for cardiovascular mortality, noncardiovascular noncancer mortality, renal mortality, and endocrine mortality. Associations in men were larger and more often significant than were those in women.
-- Vegetarian Dietary Patterns and Mortality in Adventist Health Study 2, JAMA Intern Med. 2013;():1-8. doi:10.1001/jamainternmed.2013.6473

Correlation or not, the evidence is compelling.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

SarathW
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by SarathW » Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:30 am

You can prove anything through research!
Just tell me the answer you need.
Having said that, I believe that the balance diet (including meat) and meditation (walking) may/ can extend your life.
I wonder whether I can prove this by a research of the life expectancy of a Buddhist Monk.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:52 am

BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

SarathW
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by SarathW » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:14 am

Thanks venerable sir
I got the point.
Longer life is due to just more than the food.
It is not what you got (longer life) but what you do with it (attaining nirvana)
:) :meditate:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by SarathW » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:14 am

Thanks venerable sir
I got the point.
Longer life is due to just more than the food.
It is not what you got (longer life) but what you do with it (attaining nirvana)
:) :meditate:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Doshin
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by Doshin » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:51 am

Ben wrote:
People who follow a vegetarian diet can enjoy an almost 12 per cent lower mortality rate than their meat loving counterparts, a new study has found. The study, published in JAMA Internal Medicine in June, followed 70,000 members of the Seventh Day Adventist Church over a six year period.
"Vegetarian diets are associated with lower all-cause mortality and with some reductions in cause-specific mortality," the authors concluded. "Results appeared to be more robust in males. These favorable associations should be considered carefully by those offering dietary guidance."


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/diet ... z2XNCu3w80
This is indeed interesting news.
If you follow the link in the article, you would see "Michael J. Orlich, MD". Another article about the same research:
http://media.jamanetwork.com/news-item/ ... -of-death/
The study notes that vegetarian groups tended to be older, more highly educated and more likely to be married, to drink less alcohol, to smoke less, to exercise more and to be thinner.

“Some evidence suggests vegetarian dietary patterns may be associated with reduced mortality, but the relationship is not well established,” the study notes.
".. but the relationship is not well established". In other words the research can not be used to prove that vegetarians live longer or be more healthy. It might easily be because of less alcohol/tobacco, less overweight and more exercise, that is the main cause for better health...

_/\_
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by lyndon taylor » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:59 am

Well being a vegetarian obviously doesn't make you less healthy, one of the biggest pro meat eating arguements I hear is that you have to eat meat for your health and that a vegetarian diet leaves out key nutrients. at least we have evidence that arguement is bogus.

Obviously the Seventh Day Adventist sample group doesn't drink or smoke, however I thought the authors of the study were saying they had compensated for that in the Meat eating group. And I don't know how, but scientists are trying to tell us that some drinking lengthens our life.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Doshin
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by Doshin » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:37 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Well being a vegetarian obviously doesn't make you less healthy, one of the biggest pro meat eating arguements I hear is that you have to eat meat for your health and that a vegetarian diet leaves out key nutrients. at least we have evidence that arguement is bogus.
".. but the relationship is not well established" goes both ways ;) In theory it could be more exercise, less alcohol/tobacco and lower weight could compensate for a any theoretical negative side-effects of being vegetarian. But the research can not establish/prove that either.
lyndon taylor wrote:Obviously the Seventh Day Adventist sample group doesn't drink or smoke, however I thought the authors of the study were saying they had compensated for that in the Meat eating group. And I don't know how, but scientists are trying to tell us that some drinking lengthens our life.
As I read the articles, all groups of diets that is compared, is found within the Seventh Day Adventists. The longer living group has many (known health improving) characteristics, one of them being the diet. But no research/conclusion on how much each factor affects the result.

This reminds of a story running some years ago, claiming that research showed that a glass of whine a day, could extent your life, and generally improve your health. When someone researched the origins of the story, it turned out that the research was made in California, and the people who could afford a glass of whine, also could afford better health insurances, hence the best medical care. The benefits of better healthcare outweighed the negative influence of daily alcohol/whine.

_/\_
Knowing about dhamma, does not imply knowing dhamma

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by lyndon taylor » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:59 am

Well then I can assure you that the meat eating Seventh Day Adventists do not drink or smoke either, so that makes the study quite effective, I don't think they would be any less likely to exercise either.SDA are about half vegetarian, half meat eating but they dont eat pork.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

SarathW
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by SarathW » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:19 am

"But there is the case where a certain woman or man, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from the taking of life, dwelling with rod laid down, knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings. From performing & undertaking such kamma, then on the breakup of the body, after death, this person re-appears in the good destinations, in the heavenly world. Or, if he/she does not reappear... in the heavenly world, but instead returns to the human state, then wherever he/she is reborn, he/she is long-lived. This is the way leading to long life, namely being one who, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from the taking of life..."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... part1.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

barcsimalsi
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by barcsimalsi » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:25 pm

Long life or short life, rebirth is forcibly free so stop clinging to the old aggregates and enjoy some meat. :jumping:

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