How common is stream entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Viscid
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Viscid » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:50 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Spiny,
Spiny Norman wrote:So is sakkāya-ditthi a symptom of asmi-mana?
I wouldn't put it that way, because the stream entrant has eradicated sakkāya-ditthi, yet has asmi-mana until arahantship.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Wow, never knew asmi-mana existed. (I was conflating the two all along!) That makes claiming a lack of identity-view much easier.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by IanAnd » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:19 am

Mr Man wrote:Hi IanAnd
For example some people seem naturally to have a strong confidence so "a realization of factual knowledge" would not be a giant change or some people seem naturally to have a strong belief in the value of rites and rituals so a realization that these practices are non-efficacious would be a giant change. So depending on our natural tendencies the way that stream entry is perceived would differ.
Hello Mr Man,

I'm not sure I follow where you are going with this. I don't think you understood my use of the phrase "a realization of factual knowledge."

By that phrase I mean: something that is indisputably and objectively true. Like, for instance, if I asked you to close your eyes and hold out your hand and spread your fingers. Then I asked you to open your eyes and tell me how many fingers you have spread. Your answer would be based on objectively looking at your hand and counting the fingers. Right?

What your proposal seems to be suggesting is that someone has confidence but not objective knowledge. How can one not have objective knowledge in the example I just gave? He cannot. Therefore, having great "confidence" or a "strong belief" is not the same as having objective first-hand knowledge.

Perhaps you were also confused by your perception about what I wrote. You said: "The point I was trying to get at was that your realization (as described) seems more to do with path (putting aside doubt) rather than 'nothing that can be taken as 'true self' (See Zom's earlier post)."

You perceived what I wrote wrongly. "Putting aside doubt" was not the main impetuous behind what I was saying. I just mentioned that because it happened to be a side effect. You apparently put too much emphasis on my saying so, thereby confusing what I was actually saying.

This is what I wrote: "Just to be clear here. Contrary to Mr. Man's perception about what I wrote, I would not describe what I was talking about as a 'deepening in faith' but rather a moment of recognition of 'this is it!' Faith, to me in this sense, implies a kind of not-knowingness, an acceptance without knowing." I also wrote: "When I say 'a realization of factual knowledge' I mean actual first hand knowingness itelf."

Confidence, faith, and belief are all of the same hue; i.e. they do not KNOW, they only accept a representation of the truth without knowing the truth. In other words, what they accept is not always true. See? What I was saying in my statement just proceeding is that I had indisputable objective proof. That's what I meant by saying "a moment of recognition of 'this is it.' " I went on to clarify that "Faith, to me in this sense, implies a kind of not-knowingness, and acceptance without knowing." I'm not sure how much clearer I could have been for you to have misperceived that.

What I'm saying is that your hypothesis is based on a faulty perception of what I said and what I meant.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

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Mr Man
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Mr Man » Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:03 am

IanAnd wrote: Hello Mr Man,

I'm not sure I follow where you are going with this.

Hi IanAnd
My point was that the experience (or realization or perception or whatever word one wishes to use) of stream entry is not consistent and will be perceived in different ways by different people due to their conditioning/disposition.
IanAnd wrote: What I'm saying is that your hypothesis is based on a faulty perception of what I said and what I meant.
I think you may be over emphasizing the importance of what you were saying to my hypothesis.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:14 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:So is sakkāya-ditthi a symptom of asmi-mana?
I wouldn't put it that way, because the stream entrant has eradicated sakkāya-ditthi, yet has asmi-mana until arahantship.
Perhaps we're looking at different degrees of insight into anatta / anicca. So superficial insight disables sakkaya-ditthi, while deep insight disables asmi-mana?
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:21 am

Greetings Spiny.

I think your question is answered well by IanAnd's recent posts.

Metta
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:56 am

retrofuturist wrote:I think your question is answered well by IanAnd's recent posts.
I'm not sure. I don't think we've established an objective measure for the level of insight required to overcome self-view ( sakkaya-ditthi ).
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by kirk5a » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:27 pm

Spiny Norman wrote: I'm not sure. I don't think we've established an objective measure for the level of insight required to overcome self-view ( sakkaya-ditthi ).
First glimpse of nibbana.
The path to stream entry is the act of focusing on physical and mental phenomena, back and forth. When events are traced back and forth—sometimes two times in succession, sometimes three, depending on the power of one’s discernment and insight—physical and mental phenomena disband and change of-lineage knowledge arises in the same instant, enabling one to see the quality within one that isn’t subject to arising or passing away. This is the opening onto nibbana, appearing sharp and clear through the power of one’s own discernment, bringing with it the fruition of stream entry, the state of being a noble disciple in the Buddha’s teaching.
- Ajahn Lee, The Craft of the Heart p. 88
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Zom
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Zom » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:48 pm

First glimpse of nibbana.
Commentarial view. While suttas do not support this at all.
I don't think we've established an objective measure for the level of insight required to overcome self-view ( sakkaya-ditthi ).
There is none.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by kirk5a » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:05 pm

Zom wrote:
First glimpse of nibbana.
Commentarial view. While suttas do not support this at all.
This is clear support:
Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."


Even if just this is the Dhamma,
you have penetrated
to the Sorrowless (asoka) State
unseen, overlooked (by us)
for many myriads of aeons.
Then Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Bright are your faculties, my friend; pure your complexion, and clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

"Yes, my friend, I have attained the Deathless. "
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
I don't think we've established an objective measure for the level of insight required to overcome self-view ( sakkaya-ditthi ).
There is none.
Yes, there is:
there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."
Which as can be seen from Sariputta's experience above, implies seeing what it NOT subject to cessation. As Ven. Thanissaro says:
Part of what makes the arising of the Dhamma eye such a powerful experience is that the realization that "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation" must follow on a glimpse of what stands in opposition to "all that is subject to origination," i.e., a glimpse of the Unconditioned — deathlessness.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... tream.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by daverupa » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:25 pm

What is subject to origination is subject to cessation, as a principle, does not necessarily make reference to seeing another thing which is an exception to the rule. One sees simply the operation of the principle as defining both samsara, and the escape therefrom.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by kirk5a » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:29 pm

daverupa wrote:What is subject to origination is subject to cessation, as a principle, does not necessarily make reference to seeing another thing which is an exception to the rule. One sees simply the operation of the principle as defining both samsara, and the escape therefrom.
One directly knows "the escape therefrom." Which is Nibbana, which is not subject to cessation. As the quotation I provided proves.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Zom
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Zom » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:43 pm

This is clear support:
No, this is not a clear support. Clear support would be the direct statement that stream-enterer sees nibbana directly. In this stranza you mentioned there is nothing about direct perception of nibbana. It can be well explained as (intellectual) understaining of the goal of the path (and that is what a stream enterer really has).

And if you look into suttas that do speak about direct seeing of nibbana - like MN64, AN 10.6, AN 11.7, AN 11.8 and others - you will see, that the result of such direct seeing is at least non-returning. Or - arahanship.
there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."
This is just the understaning of the principle of conditionality, not more than that. Because of this understanding you form right views (samma-ditthi) and drop wrong views (miccha-ditthi). When you did understood it, you won't have wrong ideas or asking wrong questions based on annihilationist/eternalist views.
Which as can be seen from Sariputta's experience above, implies seeing what it NOT subject to cessation. As Ven. Thanissaro says:
This is his personal opinion. The phrase itself does not support this.
One directly knows "the escape therefrom." Which is Nibbana, which is not subject to cessation.
Seeing the escape means seeing (understanding) the Path, but not getting the goal.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by kirk5a » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:20 pm

Zom wrote:
No, this is not a clear support. Clear support would be the direct statement that stream-enterer sees nibbana directly. In this stranza you mentioned there is nothing about direct perception of nibbana. It can be well explained as (intellectual) understaining of the goal of the path (and that is what a stream enterer really has).
It is a direct statement. "the deathless" = nibbana.

As for intellectual understanding, that might describe the "dhamma follower." The stream enterer "knows and sees."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Zom » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:58 pm

The stream enterer "knows and sees."
Ye. But knows and sees what? Sees that mind changes, feelings change, formations change. But not nibbana.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:59 pm

Here's another sutta about glimpsing nibbana, though it's not specific about the actual level. Also some discussion of some of the other sources Kirk mentions.

SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=12266

:anjali:
Mike

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