"The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Dan74
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by Dan74 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:41 pm

alan wrote:Huh? Not sure I'm on your wavelength.
I am just saying, how do we know what's in this account is true? I would be careful not to spread slander against the Sangha until checking it out.
_/|\_

perkele
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by perkele » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:24 pm

binocular wrote: /.../

Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Adult Dhamma
:goodpost:
Another quote from the same:
Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:When he taught his young son, Rahula, about truthfulness, the teaching was also pretty harsh. If you feel no shame in telling a lie, he said, your goodness is empty. It's thrown away. You can't be trusted. Then he taught Rahula to apply truthfulness in looking at his actions, to learn from his actions. That is basically what it means to become an adult.
Related to that - a quote from the book which is the topic of this thread (by some bhikkhu mentioned there):
"It is useless to practice in Pā-Auk, since Sayādaw cannot read my mind. He just gave me the instructions according to what I provide, even when I was lying."
Judging from what I have read so far, I do not think that the book is overly biased. It does seem to give quite a realistic account of what happens when people are insincere, hungry for holiness and "attainments" and all such things and their reputation, but cannot handle it and sacrifice their honesty. When such development becomes commonplace it is hard to stop.


This book is a warning. As for its "inflammatoriness", one should be careful not to read it with an inflammatory mindset, I guess.
We should not be sad, or angry. Today it often seems we have "too much information", more than we actually want to know. Must be some kind of bad karma for us. :lol:
"Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to passion, not to dispassion; to being fettered, not to being unfettered; to accumulating, not to shedding; to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; to discontent, not to contentment; to entanglement, not to seclusion; to laziness, not to aroused persistence; to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': You may categorically hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.'
Thanks for sharing.
Last edited by perkele on Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:09 am, edited 3 times in total.

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BlackBird
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by BlackBird » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:53 pm

Dan74 wrote:
alan wrote:Huh? Not sure I'm on your wavelength.
I am just saying, how do we know what's in this account is true? I would be careful not to spread slander against the Sangha until checking it out.
I knew it was coming, but all the same, I do take issue with the idea that I am 'spreading slander'.

You say it's slander, but no, I don't think so. Firstly, I think the author would need to be lying for it to be slander against the Sangha. For the claims directed against a number of these Bhikkhu's within the book are that they are parajika for a variety of reasons, and thus not part of the Sangha. Furthermore, does it not have to be a lie for it to be slander? Otherwise is it not merely a report of a truthful event, made according to the author, for the purposes of warning those who might seek to visit or ordain at Na Uyana?

And to answer your previous comment about it being impossible to ascertain the truth: Might it not be possible for someone to happen upon this thread who has been to Na Uyana and can back up at least one of the hundreds of instances of corruption detailed in this book? I think it is entirely possible.
Last edited by BlackBird on Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Dan74
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by Dan74 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:57 pm

Hi Jack. I didn't say that you were spreading slander, I don't know. But you are risking it but putting this out without first ascertaining the facts.
_/|\_

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BlackBird
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by BlackBird » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:01 am

Dan74 wrote:Hi Jack. I didn't say that you were spreading slander, I don't know. But you are risking it but putting this out without first ascertaining the facts.
Dan, I am putting it out there in order to ascertain the facts.

I'm sorry I accused you of accusing me of spreading slander, it just seemed logical when you said "I would be careful not to spread Slander against the Sangha" that my posting of what could be considered slander was whom it was directed at, considering nobody else has done anything close to that here.

with metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Dan74
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by Dan74 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:41 am

If this info fell into my hands, I would first try to contact the parties involved for comment before putting it on the interwebs.

Suppose it is a lie or largely inaccurate. How would the monks, the abbot, the laity who have put so much into this monastic community feel? Some people may want to go and practice there but be dissuaded by the negative portrayal. The consequences are heavy. We should be careful with such material.

I agree that there is a value in exposing corruption. All I am saying is that it has to be done very carefully and sensitively to the possible harm.
_/|\_

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BlackBird
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by BlackBird » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:15 am

Dan74 wrote:If this info fell into my hands, I would first try to contact the parties involved for comment before putting it on the interwebs.
Suppose it's not one big well written highly imaginative fictitious lie thought up by someone with a high level of knowledge of Na Uyana's operations including a full list of resident monks. Suppose it's true, in which case what good would contacting the 'parties involved' do? Would they not just continue to deny any such wrong doing? They certainly would not admit to being parajika to some western lay person from the opposite side of the globe.

So either way - You're only going to get one answer regardless of whether the monks involved are parajika or not - The answer will be that the author made the whole thing up, and we wind up no closer to any truth in the matter than before.

Do you see my line of reasoning here Dan?

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Hickersonia
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by Hickersonia » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:25 am

Supposing that we are qualified to judge, what precisely are we to do about it? I don't see how any facts will be gleamed on the matter, as the only people who know what is going on there are the monks there. If they are tolerating (or worse, supporting) the commission of parajika offences, let their kamma be their own undoing.

I don't see any way for this to go any further in a productive direction, friends... :thinking:
Hickersonia
http://hickersonia.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of
throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."

perkele
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by perkele » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:37 am

Hickersonia wrote:Supposing that we are qualified to judge, what precisely are we to do about it? I don't see how any facts will be gleamed on the matter, as the only people who know what is going on there are the monks there. If they are tolerating (or worse, supporting) the commission of parajika offences, let their kamma be their own undoing.

I don't see any way for this to go any further in a productive direction, friends... :thinking:
I agree.

@Dan: I also do not think it is dangerous to post this.
All it shows is a very common development: Hypocrisy in response to feeling overburdened, feeling overburdened as a result, leading to more hypocrisy... and so on... a recipe for ruin. I do think it has much merit to be able to see this.

If one wants to go there one can still go. It just shows what to be careful about, which traps to avoid falling into: a benchmark for one's own motivation.
I think it should not be seen in any other way.

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BlackBird
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by BlackBird » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:04 am

Hickersonia wrote:what precisely are we to do about it? I don't see how any facts will be gleamed on the matter
Really, the reason is to let people who might be intending to stay there or ordain there (as I once was intending) know what might be taking place there. It's important that they know that this account exists, and there is a value in attempting to find out if there is any truth to the matter.

with metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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mikenz66
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:19 am

Hi Jack,
BlackBird wrote: Really, the reason is to let people who might be intending to stay there or ordain there (as I once was intending) know what might be taking place there. It's important that they know that this account exists, and there is a value in attempting to find out if there is any truth to the matter.
I know very little about the Sri Lankan monastic scene, but this is a reasonably well-known place, isn't it? Doing some googling, I saw that Ajahn Brahm has given at least one talk there.
From a quick scan, there seemed to be two distinct aspect to the book. One aspect is specific criticisms of the particular monastery, which, if true, are clearly unacceptable. The other aspect seemed to be the author's analysis of Pa Auk's teaching, which is a matter of opinion. It seems a strange mixture...

:anjali:
Mike

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lyndon taylor
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by lyndon taylor » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:39 am

Every person or persons has a mixture of positive or negative traits, if we only focus on the negative we could almost make anyone look bad, does this writer say anything positive about any of the monks in this book, if not then there has to be a strong bias, because I'm sure they have their positive points.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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BlackBird
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by BlackBird » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:42 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Every person or persons has a mixture of positive or negative traits, if we only focus on the negative we could almost make anyone look bad, does this writer say anything positive about any of the monks in this book, if not then there has to be a strong bias, because I'm sure they have their positive points.
Parajika is no small crime. I don't know how you can say "if we only focus on the negative..." when faced with very very serious allegations. I think you should read this text, perhaps beyond the one or two pages I suspect you've read.
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Jack,
BlackBird wrote: Really, the reason is to let people who might be intending to stay there or ordain there (as I once was intending) know what might be taking place there. It's important that they know that this account exists, and there is a value in attempting to find out if there is any truth to the matter.
I know very little about the Sri Lankan monastic scene, but this is a reasonably well-known place, isn't it? Doing some googling, I saw that Ajahn Brahm has given at least one talk there.
From a quick scan, there seemed to be two distinct aspect to the book. One aspect is specific criticisms of the particular monastery, which, if true, are clearly unacceptable. The other aspect seemed to be the author's analysis of Pa Auk's teaching, which is a matter of opinion. It seems a strange mixture...

:anjali:
Mike

Yes I agree, it is a strange mixture. It seems whoever has written this has been really hurt by someone. It almost seems like revenge. It's really hard to make an educated decision on this. But I keep coming back to the fact that it just seems far too detailed, there are far too many details about the monastery itself and the monks involved for it to be all made up - That's what I cannot disregard. It just seems too detailed to be fiction.

But then again perhaps the author just has a really good imagination, and spent enough time at Na Uyana to learn all of the monks names and habits and cliques.

I don't know...
Last edited by BlackBird on Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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lyndon taylor
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by lyndon taylor » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:45 am

Well what are the crimes, all we've talked about are bad medicine and not meditating.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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BlackBird
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by BlackBird » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:53 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Well what are the crimes, all we've talked about are bad medicine and not meditating.
No, that's all you've talked about. The quoted passage which you have selectively read also included allegations of poisoning and deliberate mistreatment of the sick.

If you actually read the text, you would notice there are many allegations of parajika incidents such as deliberate lying of attainments, widespread thievery. Furthermore there is also allegations of wrong and immoral contact with women, sexual contact with other monks. Corruption, misappropriation of donated funds the list goes on and on.

It pays to learn about what it is you're criticising before you decide to criticise it Lyndon.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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