Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
manas
Posts: 2678
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Post by manas »

pegembara wrote:Seems that there is a risk that having not seen the drawback of bliss, one remains stuck. The heart doesn't leap up at being without bliss. Even clinging to equanimity is to be discarded.
True. But don't discard bliss or equanimity, before you have fully tasted and comprehended them. We can't see the drawbacks of something unless we've seen the thing itself!

However I again realize that when two people say the word 'jhana' it might mean two different things. I was referring to jhana as described / instructed in the suttas, and not to jhana as per the visuddhimagga. Maybe one could get 'stuck' in the visuddhimagga version of jhana, I don't know enough about it to say. But since investigation and discernment are integral components of jhana as per the suttas, and not merely something one can only do 'when one emerges' from it, it would appear to me that, if one is doing the practice properly, one would naturally tend to progress through the jhanas, letting go first of rapture / pleasure, then of happiness / bliss, and so on, and would not get 'stuck'.

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Bakmoon
Posts: 637
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Post by Bakmoon »

I think it is worth noting that according to the Commentarial interpretation, although a medtiator will become attached to the pleasure of jhana, this isn't regarded as something that is specific to jhana based meditation. A practitioner of dry insight will also become attached to the pleasure of meditation for a time as well. Both the jhana meditator and the dry insight meditator will have this kind of attachment until they pass through magga-magga-nana-dasana-visuddhi, the purification of knowledge and vision of what is and what is not the path.

Personally I would say that this attachment shouldn't be a matter of concern unless the meditator starts practicing incorrectly or gets wrong motivation about the practice, but I think that would be quite unusual. I think this type of attachment, while present, isn't really a practical matter and certainly shouldn't be used to discourage jhana practice.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 995
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am
Contact:

Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Post by Kumara »

Bakmoon wrote:Personally I would say that this attachment shouldn't be a matter of concern unless the meditator starts practicing incorrectly or gets wrong motivation about the practice, but I think that would be quite unusual.
In my experience in practice and teaching, I've found this quite common though. Wrong motivation can be rather subtle. One can think that one's practice and motivation is correct when it is wrong. This is actually quite common. But everyone has to start somewhere and adjust along the way with discernment (partly that of another).
I think this type of attachment, while present, isn't really a practical matter and certainly shouldn't be used to discourage jhana practice.
That depends on what you mean by "jhana", right? After all, it's just a word, and there is such thing as wrong samadhi. Ultimately, it's one's growth in wisdom with the reduction in defilements and suffering that is the best measure.
Bakmoon
Posts: 637
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Post by Bakmoon »

I would agree with your assessment, Ven. sir. This is why one should practice under a teacher, as the teacher will be able to be a check against such wrong motivation. But as long as one has a competent teacher, I would say that the jhanas themselves are not a major matter of concern.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 995
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am
Contact:

Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Post by Kumara »

Sylvester wrote:Thanks Bhante, for your thoughts. I guess this is where we disagree on the classification of the jhana formulae's pīti and sukha within the kāyika versus cetasika division of feelings. Looking at the standard 4th jhana formula, it appears to me more plausible that jhanic sukha is kāyika feeling, as somanassa (the cetasika feeling) is said to have disappeared earlier.
I had wanted to reply to this earlier, but put it off. Recently, I finally got around to make my own translation of the standard four jhanas formula and was reminded of this.

Let me get a few things straight first:
1. What do you mean by "somanassa (the cetasika feeling) is said to have disappeared earlier"? The descending of somanassa, besides other factors, signifies the 4th jhana, no?
2. How did you get the idea that MN13 is speaking of "kāyika versus cetasika division of feelings"?
3. Would you go along with the translation "Nibbana is the highest pleasure"?
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Post by Sylvester »

Hi Bhante

Re Q1, I think this is where you and I inform ourselves differently on the nature of "sukha" mentioned in the 1st to 3rd jhāna pericopes. You look at it as somanassa (a cetasika feeling), whereas I view it as the hedonic prequel to "joy". For me, sukha in these pericopes mean pleasure. The cetasika sequel to pleasure simpliciter would be either pīti (1st and 2nd jhāna) or upekkhā (3rd jhāna). For example, when sukha disappears to give rise to the 4th jhāna, you will still have 2 types of feelings. The kāyika would be the adukkham-asukhā vedanā, while the cetasika would be upekkha. Where somanassa would seem to disappear would be the same place where domanassa disappears, namely when satipaṭṭhāna is well-established and has achieved vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. I would just point out that I understand the term kāyika very differently from the standard exegesis that is based on the Abhidhamma. I'm afraid it's too involved to explain here, but perhaps you might look at http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=13998 for a start. As I understand it, the kāyika pertains to the hedonic tone arising at any of the 6 faculties, while the cetasika is the evaluative and affective sequel that arises only at the mind. Essentially, what I am trying to say is that the mind is capable of kāyika feelings (in the sense of hedonic tone) and then experiencing the cetasika (affective) sequel. See a clear example of this from MN 148 -
after discussing the other 5 sense bases -

Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one relishes it, welcomes it, or remains fastened to it, then one's latent tendency to passion underlies. If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats one's breast, becomes distraught, then one's latent tendency to aversion underlies. If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then one's latent tendency to ignorance underlies.
Re Q2, see this -
If the clansman gains no wealth while thus working & striving & making effort, he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught: 'My work is in vain, my efforts are fruitless!'

Tassa ce bhikkhave kulaputtassa evaṃ uṭṭhahato ghaṭato vāyamato bhogā nābhinipphajjanti, so socati kilamati paridevati urattāḷiṃ kandati sammohaṃ āpajjati: " moghaṃ vata me uṭṭhānaṃ, aphalo vata me vāyāmoti."
The underlined text is a standard pericope for the cetasika feeling of grief, explicitly identified as such in SN 36.6. The perception of loss is in itself unpleasant; what triggers the affective sequel is the latent tendency to aversion, again explained in SN 36.6. I try to keep the hedonic and affective components separate, as it is supposed to be a function of sense restraint to rein in the anusayas specific to each hedonic tone, such that one need not grieve over a painful feeling.

See also -
Whatever pleasure & joy arise in dependence on that beauty & charm: That is the allure of forms.

Yaṃ kho bhikkhave subhaṃ vaṇṇanibhaṃ paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṃ somanassaṃ. Ayaṃ rūpānaṃ assādo
Again, you have the experience bifurcated into hedonic tone and affective sequel.

Re Q3, I would answer Yes. I don't think the Great Disciples were incapable of lyrical speech, especially when in the same sutta, it was expressly acknowledged that nothing is felt in that. To me, nibbānaṁ paramaṁ sukhaṁ is simply inspired speech given poetic licence.

:anjali:
User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 995
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am
Contact:

Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Post by Kumara »

Sylvester wrote:....
Too many things to work out with you. I pass.
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Post by Sylvester »

It's OK Bhante.

I do hope you will be able to give up your qualms about jhanic sukha. MN 44 has a very positive re-assurance about how it is impervious to rāgānusayo.
Post Reply