Mind-made body - a question

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stuka
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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by stuka » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:46 pm

Individual wrote: The term "perpetual transmigration," is problematic, possibly misleading. The term "perpetual," is etymologically related to "permanent," and "transmigration," generally implies a reincarnation of a self or soul. You shouldn't even subtly suggest that there is eternal reincarnation. It always seems clearer to me to be much more specific and relate the teaching to impermanence: that the impermanent cycle of suffering (impermanent based on liberation, not impermanent on death) manifests an impermanent life, which eventually has an impermanent death, until a new impermanent life and death is formed, in accordance with the action of the previous iteration.
You would still have to account for whatever scorekeeper decides who is going to be reincarnated as a God of Refulgent Glory, and who is going to be reincarnated as an intestinal parasite.

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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by Individual » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:04 pm

stuka wrote:
Individual wrote: The term "perpetual transmigration," is problematic, possibly misleading. The term "perpetual," is etymologically related to "permanent," and "transmigration," generally implies a reincarnation of a self or soul. You shouldn't even subtly suggest that there is eternal reincarnation. It always seems clearer to me to be much more specific and relate the teaching to impermanence: that the impermanent cycle of suffering (impermanent based on liberation, not impermanent on death) manifests an impermanent life, which eventually has an impermanent death, until a new impermanent life and death is formed, in accordance with the action of the previous iteration.
You would still have to account for whatever scorekeeper decides who is going to be reincarnated as a God of Refulgent Glory, and who is going to be reincarnated as an intestinal parasite.
Why do you assume that the process I described above, devoid of self or references to gods, requires a figure like Yama or the Judeo-Christian God, in order to function?

Whatever the specifics of the rebirth process -- that is, how a being previously human can become God of Refulgent Glory or an intestinal parasite -- it would happen according to kamma, not the judgment of a celestial being.

To use your own metaphor, there is a "score" but no "scorekeeper". At death, there is a score, but the score is neither lost nor kept by self.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra

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stuka
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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by stuka » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:52 pm

Individual wrote: Why do you assume that the process I described above, devoid of self or references to gods, requires a figure like Yama or the Judeo-Christian God, in order to function?

Whatever the specifics of the rebirth process -- that is, how a being previously human can become God of Refulgent Glory or an intestinal parasite -- it would happen according to kamma, not the judgment of a celestial being.

To use your own metaphor, there is a "score" but no "scorekeeper". At death, there is a score, but the score is neither lost nor kept by self.
What you propose is just as much a speculative view as an assumption that there is a score-keeper, or a sky-god, or a flying spaghetti monster. Saying "there is a score but no score-keeper" fails to demonstrate any sort of mechanism that would cause this "score" to be transferred. It's simply an evolving story, being modified with specious arguments to address questions that expose its weaknesses.

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appicchato
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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by appicchato » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:32 am

Individual wrote:At death, there is a score, but the score is neither lost nor kept by self.
And you would know this how?...

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Cittasanto
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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by Cittasanto » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:26 am

appicchato wrote:
Individual wrote:At death, there is a score, but the score is neither lost nor kept by self.
And you would know this how?...
I am wondering the same!
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by Cittasanto » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:37 am

I just looked at the original question and a thought occurred to me in regard to the first two verses of the dhammapada which have been used here!
Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:Phenomena are preceded by the heart, ruled by the heart, made of the heart. If you speak or act with a corrupted heart, then suffering follows you — as the wheel of the cart, the track of the ox that pulls it.

Phenomena are preceded by the heart, ruled by the heart, made of the heart. If you speak or act with a calm, bright heart, then happiness follows you, like a shadow that never leaves.
or
Acharya Buddharakkhita wrote:1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.
It could be said that stress (also used by Thanissaro Bhikkhu to translate Dukkha) is caused by clinging so the mind is not happy or happy depending on how mentally stressed we are , but it is shown that stress can cause skin blemishes and other not so visible conditions.
so I suppose that this is a form of mind made body
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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srivijaya
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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by srivijaya » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:01 am

Manapa wrote:I am wondering the same!
... and I'm wondering what happened to this thread? :shrug:

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Dhammanando
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Re: Mind-made body - a question

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:36 am

Indeed.

:focus:

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