"Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
starter
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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Post by starter » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:30 pm

The Buddha was once accused of murdering a woman assisted by His disciples. Non-Buddhists severely attacked the Buddha and His Disciples to such an extent that Ven. Ānanda appealed to the Buddha to leave for another village.

-- "How, Ānanda, if those villagers also abuse us?"
-- "Well then, Lord, we will proceed to another village."
-- "Then Ānanda, the whole of India will have no place for us. Be patient. These abuses will automatically cease."

Compared to the abuse that the Buddha had suffered, what we had are really nothing. Let's practice according to the Buddha's teaching:

"Be patient. These abuses will automatically cease."

Metta to all!

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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Post by cooran » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:03 am

Hello starter,

What sutta is this?

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:24 am

I can find it here: http://buddhism.org/Sutras/BuddhaTeachings/page_43.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But with no reference.

It looks like it is commentary on Udana 4.8 Sundari and the Dhammapada.
See entry 3 here: http://www.aimwell.org/DPPN/sundarii.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Post by cooran » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:38 am

Thanks Mike for tracking a reference down. I didn't think it was a Sutta, but wanted to make certain.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:44 am

Hi Chris,

The murder, and the Buddha telling the Bhikkhus that it will pass is part of the Udana sutta, but the conversation with Ananada seems to be in the commentary.

Strangely, that sutta is missing from Access to Insight.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:50 am

This Dhammapada verse (22.1/306) is in the Udana sutta 4.8 I mentioned above:
http://www.metta.lk/english/Narada/22-N ... 0Vagga.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
LIARS SUFFER

1. The speaker of untruth goes to a woeful state, and also he who, having done aught, says, "I did not". Both after death become equal, men of base actions in the other world. 306.

Story

In order to disparage the Buddha a woman was killed by some villains hired by a heretical sect and the corpse was concealed in a rubbish heap near the Buddha's Perfumed Chamber. Later, the murderers confessed their guilt implicating the heretics. Discoursing on the evil of false accusation, the Buddha uttered this verse.
:anjali:
Mike

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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Post by starter » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:12 am

Why haven't the abuses automatically ceased?

-- Your old karma/debt hasn't been fully paid yet?
-- You din't restrain yourself and created new karma by defending yourself? Is defending ourselves also a form of fighting back? Can we defend ourselves when facing unjust treatments/abuses? Can we seek worldly means of help such as legal assistance?
-- You got lost in the worldly affairs, and didn't investigate internally but instead sought externally, so you still need such "opportunities" to growth and make progress in the path?

Metta to all!

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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Post by binocular » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:06 pm

alan wrote:Bhikku Pesala: I see that Sutta not just about cruelty, or the removal of defilements--a subject that has been expounded on at length elsewhere. It seems to be more about the attitude you take when confronted with the problems of the world. Maybe that's why there is a long and repetitive list of all the benefits of "effacement" in so many different situations. The PTS definition strikes me as harsh and unwise. Austere penance? No thanks.
In one sense, it is indeed austere penance to have goodwill (and compassion and sympathetic joy) for violent people (and other beings). Not countering violence and anger with violence and anger can feel very demeaning. Having goodwill in the face of violence and anger can feel like complete personal defeat.

For example: I am very much afraid of dogs, and have had many bad encounters with dogs, and their owners. As I would get badly riled up (I was useless for hours, shaking and trembling) after having been barked or charged at, I realized I had to do something about it. The very thought of having goodwill for aggressive dogs seemed utterly demeaning to me, and it felt like the most unjust, cruel penance that I should have goodwill for aggressive dogs, just so that I wouldn't be all riled up when they bark at me or worse.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Post by BlackBird » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:55 am

I was just reading this sutta from the Majjhima the other day. Very good Sutta.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Post by floating_abu » Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:17 am

Great thread, starter. Having been subject to baseless lies, accusation and hypocrisy recently, it is a good reminder.
Merci.

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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Post by starter » Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:45 pm

Hello friends,

Thanks for all your input and encouragement.

I'd like to share with you my recent practice on this topic. While maintaining the faith on the Buddha's teaching and trying to reflect upon and search inside to discover/remove my own defilements and practice metta, the abuses "cease" in a way that they don't disturb the peace of the heart anymore. Even though some others are even more cruel (probably as the result of the previous mistake of fighting back with anger, resentment, and greed for gain), the heart has become independent of the environment and most of the time remained peaceful (with liberative joy), without anger, hatred, or ill will.

I remember that the Buddha taught it's OK to defend ourselves when necessary, but it should be done without hate or other defilements (sorry I forgot in which sutta he taught so). We can defend ourselves with as little defilements as possible, and improve ourselves while responding to abuses, by taking these as opportunities for our Dhamma practice.

Hope it can be of help to some other friends in similar situation. May abuses also "cease" within your heart.

Metta to all!

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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Post by cooran » Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:55 pm

Hello starter,

i'm not sure the Buddha gave a Sutta directly about self-defence. Here is a previous thread:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7537

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

starter
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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Post by starter » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:35 pm

Hello Chris,

Thanks for your help. The thread seems to be about physical defense. I'm talking about defending against lies, false accusations, and unjust treatment.

I might have mixed up the reading of a translator's note with an actual sutta teaching. I somehow remember that the Buddha taught some bhikkhus certain strategy (by saying something to villagers) to defend against false accusations. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Metta to all!

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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Post by starter » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:05 pm

Greetings!

When painful thoughts and feelings due to abuse or memory of abuse arise, it could be difficult to stop such thoughts and feelings. We should immediately turn our attention to the Dhamma, and recite or read the Buddha's teaching as summarized in the first post of this thread (so it's very helpful to be able to memorize them, which are the best medicine).

Ask: "What is the source of sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair? How do they arise?'' (SN 22.43)

Recognize: I'm having painful feelings/thoughts (and perceptions/volitions), but they are only feelings/thoughts (and perceptions/volitions); they are anicca, dukkha, and anatta -- they are not you, not yours; let them go.

After such hurtful feelings/thoughts stop, then recite/read the metta sutta (Sn 1.8), and radiate metta to ourselves, to the abusers, and to all.

Realize that we could turn the abuses we suffer to great progress in our Dhamma practice, by cultivating all the 10 paramis (and even beyond):

Dāna pāramī : generosity/forgiveness

Sīla pāramī : proper conduct

Nekkhamma pāramī: non-ill will/non-hatred/non-hostility, non-cruelty/non-harming

Paññā pāramī : insight of the five aggregates' anicca, dukkha, anatta

Viriya (also spelled vīriya) pāramī : diligent effort to avoid/stop the unwholesome, and arouse/develop the wholesome

Khanti pāramī : patience, tolerance, forbearance, acceptance, endurance (& humility, contentment)

Sacca pāramī : truthfulness, honesty (by acknowledging our own mistakes and wrong doings)
Adhiṭṭhāna (adhitthana) pāramī : determination (to stop the unwholesome and to develop the wholesome)

Mettā pāramī : loving-kindness

Upekkhā (also spelled upekhā) pāramī : equanimity, serenity

"Though touched by worldly circumstances,
Never his mind is wavering,
Sorrowless, stainless and secure:
This, the Highest Blessing."
(-- the Mangala sutta)

Writing such a post certainly helps as well. May we all overcome whatever pain, and enjoy the highest blessing. Metta to all!

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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Post by starter » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:36 pm

Anguttara Nikaya 5.161
Aghatapativinaya Sutta: How to Remove Grudges
translated from the Pali
by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi

"There are, O monks, five ways of getting rid of a grudge, by means of which a monk can remove all grudges that have arisen within him. What five?

If a grudge arises towards any person, then one should cultivate loving-kindness towards him ... or compassion ... or equanimity. In that way one can remove the grudge towards that person.

Or one should pay no attention to him and give no thought to him. In that way one can remove the grudge.

Or one may apply to that person the fact of ownership of kamma: "This person should be* the owner of his actions, the heir of his actions; his actions are the womb (from which he has sprung), his relations, and his protection. Whatever he does, good or bad, he will be heir to that."
[‘kammassakokamma ayamāyasmā kammadāyādo kammayoni kammabandhu kammapaṭisaraṇo"]

These are the five ways of getting rid of a grudge, by means of which a monk can remove all grudges that have arisen within him."
http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh208-p.html# ... oveGrudges

* I changed "This worthy (BT: Venerable; BN: good) person" into "This person should be", since "worthy", "venerable", or "good" doesn't seem to fit here. In MN 69, "yo ayamāyasmā sabrahmacārīsu agāravo hoti appatisso’ti" is translated as "he should be respectful and not rebellious towards a fellow monk", so I think in AN 5.161 "ayamāyasmā" probably also means "should be" instead "Venerable".

Would the 5th method, the application of the fact of ownership of kamma contains a tiny little bit of ill wish by thinking about that person's reward of bad karma for his bad action?

Your input would be appreciated.

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