Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

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diptych4
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Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Post by diptych4 » Fri May 24, 2013 12:39 pm

‘The great tragedy of Science : the slaying of a beautiful theory by an ugly fact’ (T. H. Huxley). The ugly fact here is that before Peppe officially announced his Piprahwa claims in 1898, he had been in touch with the notorious forger and cheat Dr Fuhrer who was excavating nearby. Fuhrer had then been selling phony Buddha-relics to a Burmese monk, U Ma, and a year BEFORE Peppe’s claim, Fuhrer had sent U Ma spurious bone relics of the Buddha which he claimed were those presented to the Sakyas of Kapilavastu after the Buddha’s cremation, these being placed in a soapstone casket with an ‘ancient inscription’. Since all of these details are, of course, exactly identical with those made for Peppe’s claim - supposedly unique - it is surely safe to conclude that the former scam was merely a dry run for the latter.

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gavesako
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Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Post by gavesako » Fri May 24, 2013 2:44 pm

Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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DrG
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Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Post by DrG » Fri May 31, 2013 10:03 pm

Dear all commenting on this subject,

Just thought I would add a few informed comments about the Piprahwa find and evidence supporting its authenticity.

I was asked as an academic to critically review the evidence of those arguing that the Piprahwa find is a fake conducted by Dr Fuhrer.

I found no evidence at all suggesting Dr Fuhrer and Mr Peppe's grandfather colluded in forging the Piprahwa find or any evidence of Dr Fuhrer having any actual physical involvement in the excavation.

Indeed, the timing and logistics of any possible forgery would have been impossible by one man, while the historical documentary evidence clearly shows no connection between the two men other than after the find when Mr Peppe had to tell the authorities by law of the find and Dr Fuhrer - who was the regional archaeological expert.

Dr Fuhrer also had no motivation to forge the Piprahwa find since he was neither at the centre of the Piprahwa excavation (surely he would have made sure of this to get the fame if he was supposed to know about this career changing and momentous historical find), nor did he benefit financially from it like his other forgeries. In fact, Peppe never received any financial reward either for the excavation; the only reward he got was from the King of Siam who gave him a stamp album and gilt-silver salver - hardly a King's ransom. And the family retained (with the Indian government's permission) just a small collection of the jewels with majority of the relics including the coffer and reliquary vases going to the Indian government and other Buddhist countries.

The documentary on the National Geographic channel also gave evidence to the fact that Dr Fuhrer could not have forged the inscription since he didn't have the right linguistic knowledge and indeed would never have known a particular word used in that inscription. In fact two other world experts on Indian history and languages are of the same opinion the inscription is genuine.

It is also worth noting that the book by Charles Allen and this documentary were created independently of the Peppe family and in no way funded by them - a false and cynical rumour that appears on some other forums. Indeed, Mr Peppe is not in any financial position to fund such extensive research and documentaries and is only selling most of the families collection because, like many older people, the money will help stretch a limited pension. But for the conspiracy theorists they will always make two plus two equal five, like they do with the original find.

I would suggest that those who remain doubtful carefully read the section "Controversy and Truth" on Mr Peppe's website. This clearly shows that the arguments used by those who think the Piprahwa find is forged are seriously flawed and like all conspiracy theories they sound convincing until critically challenged using evidence and rational argument.

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gavesako
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Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Post by gavesako » Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:09 pm

Today, the eighth day of the waning moon in the sixth lunar month, is Aṭṭhamī Pūjā, commemorating the day of the Buddha’s cremation.

http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/E ... bution.htm
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
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diptych4
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Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Post by diptych4 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:54 am

It should be noted that despite the attempt of Rhys Davids (JRAS, 1901) to discredit the well-known story of Asoka rifling the original eight stupas to disperse their Buddha-relics in stupas throughout India, this story would nevertheless appear to gain full support from the accounts of the two early Chinese pilgrims, Faxian and Xuanzang, whose accounts remain the only reliable ones we have on ancient Indian Buddhist sites. Neither pilgrim makes any mention of visiting ANY of these original eight stupas save that of Ramagrama, which the king is said to have spared. Both pilgrims appear to have stayed for some time at the Kapilavastu site however, and both mention visiting many places associated with the Buddha’s presence there (the palace remains, etc) together with similar associated sites to up a distance of six miles around the town itself. Yet neither pilgrim makes the slightest mention of seeing any Sakyan stupa containing the Buddha’s relics at Kapilavastu - which would undoubtedly have been a major feature at the site - a fact which further supports the story of Asoka’s destructive raid on the stupa there. From this, it seems evident enough that this original Sakyan stupa no longer existed in the place, otherwise they would most certainly have seen it and mentioned it in their accounts. Yet despite this glaring absence, the Piprahwa stupa is alleged not only to be this stupa, but also to have yielded TWO sets of deposits of the Buddha’s remains, one supposedly in an Asokan urn! Given the evidences cited above, this claim would thus appear to be, as Alice said of Wonderland, ‘curiouser, and curiouser’ the more we look at it.

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Thanavuddho
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Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Post by Thanavuddho » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:32 am

Greetings,
David N. Snyder wrote: I have noticed this too with the so-called relics of Buddha, Sariputta, Moggallana, etc. There are so many temples with supposedly bone fragments of the Buddha that if they are real, the Buddha must have been about 1,000 feet tall to produce so many remains.
According to one theory the relics can multiply if the person in possession of them is a virtuous Buddhist.

:juggling:
“Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā, dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.”(DN16)
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diptych4
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Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Post by diptych4 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:15 pm

What with all this shilly-shallying among the experts – who can’t even agree on whether this find is authentic, never mind its dating – it’s now perfectly obvious that the only way to resolve this critical issue is to subject the finds themselves to rigorous scientific testing. The Siamese received organic material from inside the Piprahwa coffer in 1898 – bones, sandalwood pieces, and ‘dark dust’ – and though the bones might present a problem to the faithful, there can be no objection to carbon-dating the other stuff. Likewise the terracotta ‘sealings’ from the 1973 claims, which should be subjected to thermoluminescence testing to reveal when they were fired. Otherwise it’s just ‘he says she says’, and a century of that has led us nowhere. Test the stuff, and settle the matter once and for all.

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BlackBird
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Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Post by BlackBird » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:25 pm

diptych4 wrote:What with all this shilly-shallying among the experts – who can’t even agree on whether this find is authentic, never mind its dating – it’s now perfectly obvious that the only way to resolve this critical issue is to subject the finds themselves to rigorous scientific testing. The Siamese received organic material from inside the Piprahwa coffer in 1898 – bones, sandalwood pieces, and ‘dark dust’ – and though the bones might present a problem to the faithful, there can be no objection to carbon-dating the other stuff. Likewise the terracotta ‘sealings’ from the 1973 claims, which should be subjected to thermoluminescence testing to reveal when they were fired. Otherwise it’s just ‘he says she says’, and a century of that has led us nowhere. Test the stuff, and settle the matter once and for all.
:goodpost:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

diptych4
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Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Post by diptych4 » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:54 am

piotr wrote:Hi,

So it seems that recent National Geographic documentary was a 40 min. advertisment of the auction? :twisted:
That's about the size of it , though there are also signs that Uncle Sam might be contemplating their use as diplomatic /political pawns also. Watch this space.

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