Nature of Awakening, the role of practice

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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kirk5a
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Re: Nature of Awakening, the role of practice

Post by kirk5a »

binocular wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Anyhow. In any case, the interpretation of direct experience is always through some sort of conceptual filter. Christian will analyze direct experience through their perspective, Buddhist through theirs, and atheists through theirs. It is impossible to get around it unless one is permanently in insentient state.
The Bahiya sutta is not describing "experience through a conceptual filter" or an insentient state.
I think what Alex (and myself too) have been getting at is that an ordinary person operates with an awareness that there is a meta-level, and as such, direct perception is not possible, or at least not particularly meaningful.

Compare:

A person, whose mother tongue is German, and who reads a text in English (a language that they have learned later in school, but which they understand relatively well) is actually reading the text through the conceptual filter of German, their mother tongue.
IOW, a German cannot understand English on English terms; a German can only understand English through the conceptual filter of German.

Similarly, a person, whose native discourse (or life philosophy or religion) is not Buddhism, and who reflects on a Buddhist proposition, does so through the conceptual filter of their native, non-Buddhist discourse.
People don't come to Buddhism as tabula rasas.

Arguably, only a tabula rasa could have direct experience in the plain meaning of the term "direct experience."


I find that traditional religious exegesis is often intra-religious: suitable for people who have already converted, who are already members of said religion, who are already convinced of its truthfulness. But it is not suitable for the people outside of said religion.
Which is why preaching to non-members tends to come down to "Just shut up, don't think, don't ask any questions, and just believe and repeat what we tell you." So it is much like the way a child learns their mother tongue: by immersion and with no translation. While all the languages we learn later, we learn mainly with the help of translation, in reference to our mother tongue.
Similar happens when we try to adopt religions or philosophies later on: our ideas are bound to be biased or skewed in some way. This is then sometimes called "culturally specific bias" and the like.

I see no way to get around that.
Whatever might be true of the awareness of "an ordinary person" - the Buddhist teachings are directions on how to not be caught up in that way. However you want to put it. Clearly the teachings are not just a matter of how ordinary unawakened people are already cognizing.

As for whatever difficulties arise as a result of cultural predispositions, I don't see them as any kind of insurmountable difficulty for someone who sincerely wants to understand. After all, people in every culture have seeing, hearing, sensing and cognizing.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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kirk5a
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Re: Nature of Awakening, the role of practice

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Alex123 wrote:
It doesn't say to remove seeing or to change it. Rather, don't add additional interpretation on top of it (ex: I like/hate this color. It belong to my Atta).

Same is with heard, sensed and ... cognized. Since hindrances, thoughts, restlessness is included in cognized - one isn't supposed to change them or to add on top of them extra ideas. One should remember that it is anatta. Right?
The hindrances are to be abandoned and the factors of awakening are to be developed. So practice in accord with the Bahiya sutta does not contradict that.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
binocular
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Re: Nature of Awakening, the role of practice

Post by binocular »

kirk5a wrote:Whatever might be true of the awareness of "an ordinary person" - the Buddhist teachings are directions on how to not be caught up in that way. However you want to put it. Clearly the teachings are not just a matter of how ordinary unawakened people are already cognizing.

As for whatever difficulties arise as a result of cultural predispositions, I don't see them as any kind of insurmountable difficulty for someone who sincerely wants to understand. After all, people in every culture have seeing, hearing, sensing and cognizing.
I'll put it this way: A person may be convinced that some experience they have is direct experience. But how can one know whether something is indeed direct experience or not?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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kirk5a
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Re: Nature of Awakening, the role of practice

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binocular wrote: I'll put it this way: A person may be convinced that some experience they have is direct experience. But how can one know whether something is indeed direct experience or not?
Hmm - I suppose we could ask ourselves whether there is any passion, aversion, or delusion in relation to that experience. If so, then there is still "I-making" in the mix somewhere.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Alex123
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Re: Nature of Awakening, the role of practice

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kirk5a wrote: The hindrances are to be abandoned and the factors of awakening are to be developed. So practice in accord with the Bahiya sutta does not contradict that.
The Bahiya sutta does not say that one needs to develop or abandon something. Even in Sattipatthana sutta on 4th satipatthana it doesn't talk about doing anything toward hindrances.
daverupa
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Re: Nature of Awakening, the role of practice

Post by daverupa »

Alex123 wrote:Even in Sattipatthana sutta on 4th satipatthana it doesn't talk about doing anything toward hindrances.
Hmm...
MN 10 wrote:"There is the case where a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances. And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances? There is the case where, there being sensual desire present within, a monk discerns that 'There is sensual desire present within me.' Or, there being no sensual desire present within, he discerns that 'There is no sensual desire present within me.' He discerns how there is the arising of unarisen sensual desire. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of sensual desire once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of sensual desire that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining hindrances: ill will, sloth & drowsiness, restlessness & anxiety, and uncertainty.)
So perhaps this isn't a "doing" in the sense you mean, but it's also talking about an aspect of the gradual training which is elsewhere written about thusly:
MN 107 wrote:“He resorts to a secluded resting place: the forest...a heap of straw. On returning from his almsround, after his meal he sits down, folding his legs crosswise, setting his body erect, and establishing mindfulness before him. Abandoning covetousness for the world, he abides with a mind free from covetousness; he purifies his mind from covetousness. Abandoning ill will and hatred, he abides with a mind free from ill will, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings; he purifies his mind from ill will and hatred. Abandoning sloth and torpor, he abides free from sloth and torpor, percipient of light, mindful and fully aware; he purifies his mind from sloth and torpor. Abandoning restlessness and remorse, he abides unagitated with a mind inwardly peaceful; he purifies his mind from restlessness and remorse. Abandoning doubt, he abides having gone beyond doubt, unperplexed about wholesome states; he purifies his mind from doubt.
So satipatthana very much underlies doing this with the hindrances, which concomitantly develops the awakening factors.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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kirk5a
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Re: Nature of Awakening, the role of practice

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Alex123 wrote:
kirk5a wrote: The hindrances are to be abandoned and the factors of awakening are to be developed. So practice in accord with the Bahiya sutta does not contradict that.
The Bahiya sutta does not say that one needs to develop or abandon something. Even in Sattipatthana sutta on 4th satipatthana it doesn't talk about doing anything toward hindrances.
I don't think the Buddha described a way to awakening without developing the factors for awakening. I think it is just implicit in the Bahiya sutta. As for sattipatthana:
The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to completion.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Alex123
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Re: Nature of Awakening, the role of practice

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daverupa wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Even in Sattipatthana sutta on 4th satipatthana it doesn't talk about doing anything toward hindrances.
Hmm...
MN 10 wrote:"There is the case where a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances. And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances? There is the case where, there being sensual desire present within, a monk discerns that 'There is sensual desire present within me.' Or, there being no sensual desire present within,he discerns that'There is no sensual desire present within me.' He discerns how there is the arising of unarisen sensual desire. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of sensual desire once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of sensual desire that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining hindrances: ill will, sloth & drowsiness, restlessness & anxiety, and uncertainty.)
Bold is mine. It doesn't say anything about actively removing hindrances, the word used is "discerns".
MN 107 wrote:“He resorts to a secluded resting place: the forest...a heap of straw. On returning from his almsround, after his meal he sits down, folding his legs crosswise, setting his body erect, and establishing mindfulness before him. Abandoning covetousness for the world, he abides with a mind free from covetousness; he purifies his mind from covetousness. Abandoning ill will and hatred, he abides with a mind free from ill will, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings; he purifies his mind from ill will and hatred. Abandoning sloth and torpor, he abides free from sloth and torpor, percipient of light, mindful and fully aware; he purifies his mind from sloth and torpor. Abandoning restlessness and remorse, he abides unagitated with a mind inwardly peaceful; he purifies his mind from restlessness and remorse. Abandoning doubt, he abides having gone beyond doubt, unperplexed about wholesome states; he purifies his mind from doubt.
So satipatthana very much underlies doing this with the hindrances, which concomitantly develops the awakening factors.
Abandoning is not exactly the same as forceful cutting-off. Maybe one doesn't consider any mental states to be his, so they don't bother anymore.
Wouldn't view that bad mental states need to be forcefully cut-off imply ownership of them and thus be a atta view?

Bad mental states are anicca, they will pass by themselves when their causes cease, and not because fictitious "Atta" willed them so.
  • "in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.'"
It doesn't say to "cut off bad states that are cognized!".
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mikenz66
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Re: Nature of Awakening, the role of practice

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Alex,
Alex123 wrote: It doesn't say anything about actively removing hindrances, the word used is "discerns".
I think that's a rather literal, unimaginative, reading of the passage:
There is the case where, there being sensual desire present within, a monk discerns that 'There is sensual desire present within me.' Or, there being no sensual desire present within,he discerns that 'There is no sensual desire present within me.' He discerns how there is the arising of unarisen sensual desire. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of sensual desire once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of sensual desire that has been abandoned.
This suggests to me an investigation of how the hindrances arise and cease. This understanding implies to me that the monk would then know how to deal with them: "He discerns how..."

:anjali:
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daverupa
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Re: Nature of Awakening, the role of practice

Post by daverupa »

Alex123 wrote:It doesn't say anything about actively removing hindrances, the word used is "discerns".
Well, sati underlies dhamma-investigation; satipatthana, then, underlies & facilitates the following:
MN 78 wrote:With regard to that point, one should know that 'These are unskillful resolves'... 'That is the cause of unskillful resolves'...'Here unskillful resolves cease without trace'...'This sort of practice is the practice leading to the cessation of unskillful resolves' I say.
... and dhamma-investigation conditions energy. Perhaps you are concerned that the Satipatthana Sutta doesn't seem to specifically mention the application of right effort, but I wonder why you would artificially truncate the gradual training in that way; sammaviriya and sammasati are quite related.
Abandoning is not exactly the same as forceful cutting-off... Wouldn't view that bad mental states need to be forcefully cut-off imply ownership of them and thus be a atta view?
Where'd this talk of forceful cutting off come from? Who said they were the same or different, or talked of that at all? Certainly no one said an Atta of any kind was 'the one doing the thing', nor is such a thing necessarily implied.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Alex123
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Re: Nature of Awakening, the role of practice

Post by Alex123 »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Alex,
I think that's a rather literal, unimaginative, reading of the passage:
But it is what it says there which is consistent with anatta.

mikenz66 wrote:This suggests to me an investigation of how the hindrances arise and cease. This understanding implies to me that the monk would then know how to deal with them: "He discerns how..."
Investigation and understanding is not the same as actively trying to cut off hindrances. Furthermore, if there is no self, then there isn't a self that can deal with them.
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kirk5a
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Re: Nature of Awakening, the role of practice

Post by kirk5a »

Here we go again. "If there is no self, then... how can one abandon the hindrances?"
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Nature of Awakening, the role of practice

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Alex123 wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Alex,
I think that's a rather literal, unimaginative, reading of the passage:
But it is what it says there which is consistent with anatta.

mikenz66 wrote:This suggests to me an investigation of how the hindrances arise and cease. This understanding implies to me that the monk would then know how to deal with them: "He discerns how..."
Investigation and understanding is not the same as actively trying to cut off hindrances. Furthermore, if there is no self, then there isn't a self that can deal with them.
Wisdom deals with them.

:anjali:
Mike
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Alex123
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Re: Nature of Awakening, the role of practice

Post by Alex123 »

mikenz66 wrote:Wisdom deals with them.
Right. I guess we shouldn't consider any states as "mine" or belonging to "Self".
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ground
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Re: Nature of Awakening, the role of practice

Post by ground »

Alex123 wrote:Hello all,

I have multiple ideas as to how the practice ultimately works.

...

Any comments?
If you look at it you will see that all these ideas have just one purpose: to keep itself busy. It is just restlessness. :sage:
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