Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Nyana
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Post by Nyana » Tue May 14, 2013 8:20 am

Beautiful Breath wrote:In the interim and back to the original post, could someone sum up the main differences between Sujin Boriharnwanakets' take on 'reality' and its major difference with the Madhyamika Prasangika. I am not sufficiently well versed in Pali to pick this out as yet so a resume would be appreciated!
For the Theravāda commentaries, mind (citta), mental factors (cetasika), form (rūpa) and nibbāna are all ultimately existent and real. It's a realist school.

For mādhyamikas (there's no need to distinguish between prasaṅgika & svātantrika here), mind and form, etc., are conventional and not ultimates.

The ultimates according to the Theravāda commentaries are considered to be conventional according to mādhyamikas.

Is that clear enough?

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Beautiful Breath
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Post by Beautiful Breath » Tue May 14, 2013 12:40 pm

Yep clear as a bell...

But the mādhyamikas have 'proved' their case....haven't they? I see nothing anywhere that contradicts or refutes them. If there is, let me know - would help with my Theravadain/Mādhyamikas Nerosis!

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tiltbillings
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Post by tiltbillings » Tue May 14, 2013 1:26 pm

Beautiful Breath wrote:Yep clear as a bell...

But the mādhyamikas have 'proved' their case....haven't they? I see nothing anywhere that contradicts or refutes them. If there is, let me know - would help with my Theravadain/Mādhyamikas Nerosis!
Keep in mind that one does not need to buy into the later "ultimate realities" stuff of the later Abhidhamma, which Sujin idiosyncratically represents.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Nyana
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Post by Nyana » Tue May 14, 2013 4:30 pm

Beautiful Breath wrote:But the mādhyamikas have 'proved' their case....haven't they? I see nothing anywhere that contradicts or refutes them. If there is, let me know - would help with my Theravadain/Mādhyamikas Nerosis!
I think Madhyamaka can be useful, and doesn't contradict anything in the Pāli Nikāyas. And as Tilt suggests, there's no need to posit dhammas as "ultimate realities" in the first place.

As for whether or not mādhyamikas have made their case: they have if you accept mādhyamika reasoning. Of course, not everyone does accept mādhyamika reasoning, and that's fine too.

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Beautiful Breath
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Post by Beautiful Breath » Wed May 15, 2013 11:41 am

So would it be fair to say mādhyamika can sit comfortabley in a Theravadin context?

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Beautiful Breath
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Post by Beautiful Breath » Wed May 15, 2013 11:44 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
Beautiful Breath wrote:But the mādhyamikas have 'proved' their case....haven't they? I see nothing anywhere that contradicts or refutes them. If there is, let me know - would help with my Theravadain/Mādhyamikas Nerosis!
I think Madhyamaka can be useful, and doesn't contradict anything in the Pāli Nikāyas. And as Tilt suggests, there's no need to posit dhammas as "ultimate realities" in the first place.

As for whether or not mādhyamikas have made their case: they have if you accept mādhyamika reasoning. Of course, not everyone does accept mādhyamika reasoning, and that's fine too.

I have yet to find a logical refutation of the mādhyamika reasoning myself...seems pretty water tight to me....(imho - of course).

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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Post by Nyana » Wed May 15, 2013 5:55 pm

Beautiful Breath wrote:So would it be fair to say mādhyamika can sit comfortabley in a Theravadin context?
Sure.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Post by tiltbillings » Wed May 15, 2013 6:56 pm

David J. Kalupahana's Mulamadhyamakakarika of Nagarjuna: The Philosophy of the Middle Way might be of interest in that it is a translation of and a look at the Mulamadhyamakakarika from a stand point of the Pali Canon andthe Agamas. While Western Tibetan Buddhists tend to hate it because it does not conform to the usual Tibetan understanding of things (but we need to keep in mind that the Tibetans did not get everything correct, such as the Yogachara). While Kaluphahana's translation and discussion may not be perfect, it is a worthwhile read. Also, Kalupahana uses a very old Chinese commentary that approaches things a bit differently from the usual Tibetan manner.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Alex123
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Post by Alex123 » Wed May 15, 2013 8:41 pm

Beautiful Breath wrote:I have yet to find a logical refutation of the mādhyamika reasoning myself...seems pretty water tight to me....(imho - of course).
How about BUDDHIST ILLOGIC: A Critical Analysis of Nagarjuna’s Arguments
The present essay demonstrates the many sophistries involved in Nagarjuna’s arguments. He uses double standards, applying or ignoring the laws of thought and other norms as convenient to his goals; he manipulates his readers, by giving seemingly logical form (like the dilemma) to his discourse, while in fact engaged in non-sequiturs or appealing to doubtful premises; he plays with words, relying on unclear terminology, misleading equivocations and unfair fixations of meaning; and he ‘steals concepts’, using them to deny the very percepts on which they are based.link
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Post by tiltbillings » Wed May 15, 2013 9:20 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Beautiful Breath wrote:I have yet to find a logical refutation of the mādhyamika reasoning myself...seems pretty water tight to me....(imho - of course).
How about BUDDHIST ILLOGIC: A Critical Analysis of Nagarjuna’s Arguments
The present essay demonstrates the many sophistries involved in Nagarjuna’s arguments. He uses double standards, applying or ignoring the laws of thought and other norms as convenient to his goals; he manipulates his readers, by giving seemingly logical form (like the dilemma) to his discourse, while in fact engaged in non-sequiturs or appealing to doubtful premises; he plays with words, relying on unclear terminology, misleading equivocations and unfair fixations of meaning; and he ‘steals concepts’, using them to deny the very percepts on which they are based.link
Probably not.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Alex123
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Post by Alex123 » Wed May 15, 2013 9:23 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Probably not.
Have you read his book? I am just saying that some people don't consider Nagarjunas arguments to be as compelling as some claim they are.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Post by tiltbillings » Wed May 15, 2013 9:27 pm

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Probably not.
Have you read his book? I am just saying that some people don't consider Nagarjunas arguments to be as compelling as some claim they are.
If one is going to critcize Nagarjuna, it would help to really look at what Nagarjuna is saying and in the context of what he saying. This book is self-published drivel by someone who knows little of Buddhism and even less of Nagarjuna.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Alex123
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Post by Alex123 » Wed May 15, 2013 9:29 pm

tiltbillings wrote:This book is self-published drivel by someone who knows little of Buddhism and even less of Nagarjuna.
It examines the logic that Nagarjuna is using. Prove it that it is "drivel". It just sounds like baseless accusations.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Post by tiltbillings » Wed May 15, 2013 9:37 pm

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:If one is going to critcize Nagarjuna, it would help to really look at what Nagarjuna is saying and in the context of what he saying.
He is criticizing logic that Nagarjuna is using.
tiltbillings wrote:This book is self-published drivel by someone who knows little of Buddhism and even less of Nagarjuna.
It examines the logic that Nagarjuna is using. Prove it that it is "drivel".
No. I am not going waste my time with another tedious and fruitless debate with you over something you know little about. If you want a discussion of Nagarjuna, go to Dharma Wheel. And you might actually read a carefully done analysis of and commentary on Nagarjuna by someone who knows of what they are speaking. This stupid book is not it, but I see why it would appeal to you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Alex123
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket discussion...

Post by Alex123 » Wed May 15, 2013 9:48 pm

tiltbillings wrote:No. I am not going waste my time with another tedious and fruitless debate with you over something you know little about. If you want a discussion of Nagarjuna, go to Dharma Wheel. And you might actually read a carefully done analysis of and commentary on Nagarjuna by someone who knows of what they are speaking. This stupid book is not it, but I see why it would appeal to you.

Can you actually refute his arguments (or show link that refutes them) or are you just using "that book is stupid" as your argument?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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