Dhammas beyond experience?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SamKR
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Dhammas beyond experience?

Post by SamKR »

In Abhidhamma and later literature it is said that there are paramattha dhammas, for example citta, which arise and fall away with extreme rapidity (some say billions of times within a blink of an eye), whether or not there is direct experience of such rapid change. It is said that we may not normally experience each of them (and the rapidity) because our mind is not sensitive enough.

My question is: when there is no such direct experience of rapid arising and falling away, how can it be be said that cittas are in reality arising and passing away with such rapidity?
Isn't the currently ongoing actual experience (whatever it is -- whether changing very slowly or rapidly) the only reality of the moment? How can there be any "real" experience that exists beyond experience?
Isn't the assumption that "in the background there always are rapidly arising and falling dhammas with such rapidity" just a false assumption without the actual base of direct experience?
pegembara
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Re: Dhammas beyond experience?

Post by pegembara »

How can there be any "real" experience that exists beyond experience?

Besides nibbana, can there be anything else beyond experience?
"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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fivebells
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Re: Dhammas beyond experience?

Post by fivebells »

SamKR wrote:Isn't the currently ongoing actual experience (whatever it is -- whether changing very slowly or rapidly) the only reality of the moment?
From a Buddhist perspective, it's the only thing you can work with, so the only thing worth worrying about.

Maybe if you go far enough, you get to experience this citta flickering. Not worth much consideration until you do.
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Alex123
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Re: Dhammas beyond experience?

Post by Alex123 »

SamKR wrote:My question is: when there is no such direct experience of rapid arising and falling away, how can it be be said that cittas are in reality arising and passing away with such rapidity?
You have asked good questions. If the nature of citta is to know or to be aware of something, then it doesn't make sense to speak of cittas that one is not aware off.
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mikenz66
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Re: Dhammas beyond experience?

Post by mikenz66 »

Most (all?) of us have no experience of Nibbanna. Is it worthless to consider that dhamma?

:anjali:
Mike
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fivebells
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Re: Dhammas beyond experience?

Post by fivebells »

We've all experienced the cessation of suffering. In my own practice, that's a much more worthwhile dhamma to consider.
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Alex123
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Re: Dhammas beyond experience?

Post by Alex123 »

mikenz66 wrote:Most (all?) of us have no experience of Nibbanna. Is it worthless to consider that dhamma?

:anjali:
Mike
It can be experienced in principle, while dhammas beyond experience cannot be experienced even in principle, that is why they are "beyond" experience.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Dhammas beyond experience?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sam,
SamKR wrote:My question is: when there is no such direct experience of rapid arising and falling away, how can it be be said that cittas are in reality arising and passing away with such rapidity?
Isn't the currently ongoing actual experience (whatever it is -- whether changing very slowly or rapidly) the only reality of the moment? How can there be any "real" experience that exists beyond experience?
Isn't the assumption that "in the background there always are rapidly arising and falling dhammas with such rapidity" just a false assumption without the actual base of direct experience?
I believe you are entirely correct. See this previous conversation...

No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=12164

(I actually just re-read that topic... it was a fun one)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
EmptyShadow
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Re: Dhammas beyond experience?

Post by EmptyShadow »

From http://books.google.com.au/books?id=hxo ... ma&f=false
Although ultimate realities exist as the concrete essences of things, they are so subtle and profound that an ordinary person who lacks training cannot perceive them. Such a person cannot see the ultimate realities because his mind is obscured by concepts, which shape reality into conventionally defined ¬appearances. Only by means of wise or thorough attention to things(yoniso manasikāra) can one see beyond the concepts and take the ultimate realities as one's object of knowledge. Thus paramattha is described as that which belongs to the domain of ultimate or supreme knowledge.
Where in the abhidhamma it says that a person, with well developed right concentration and wisdom, can't perceive this rapid rise and fall of the ultimate reality(paramattha dhammas)?
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Alex123
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Re: Dhammas beyond experience?

Post by Alex123 »

EmptyShadow wrote:From http://books.google.com.au/books?id=hxo ... ma&f=false
Although ultimate realities exist as the concrete essences of things, they are so subtle and profound that an ordinary person who lacks training cannot perceive them. Such a person cannot see the ultimate realities because his mind is obscured by concepts, which shape reality into conventionally defined ¬appearances. Only by means of wise or thorough attention to things(yoniso manasikāra) can one see beyond the concepts and take the ultimate realities as one's object of knowledge. Thus paramattha is described as that which belongs to the domain of ultimate or supreme knowledge.
Where in the abhidhamma it says that a person, with well developed right concentration and wisdom, can't perceive this rapid rise and fall of the ultimate reality(paramattha dhammas)?
Canonical Abhidhamma does NOT teach that there are trillions of dhammas arising and ceasing every moment. Neither does Canonical Abhidhamma has teaching on paramattha dhammas.
EmptyShadow
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Re: Dhammas beyond experience?

Post by EmptyShadow »

Can you please explain what do you understand as canonical Abhidhamma and non-canonical Abhidhamma?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/abhi/
Both quotes are from the same link(highlight is from me)
The seven books

The Abhidhamma Pitaka is divided into seven books, although it is the first (Dhammasangani) and last (Patthana) that together lay out the essence of Abhidhamma philosophy. The seven books are:

I. Dhammasangani ("Enumeration of Phenomena").
This book enumerates all the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities) to be found in the world. According to one such enumeration these amount to:

52 cetasikas (mental factors), which, arising together in various combination, give rise to any one of...
...89 different possible cittas (states of consciousness)
4 primary physical elements, and 23 physical phenomena derived from them
Nibbana
The seven books of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, the third division of the Tipitaka, offer an extraordinarily detailed analysis of the basic natural principles that govern mental and physical processes. Whereas the Sutta and Vinaya Pitakas lay out the practical aspects of the Buddhist path to Awakening, the Abhidhamma Pitaka provides a theoretical framework to explain the causal underpinnings of that very path. In Abhidhamma philosophy the familiar psycho-physical universe (our world of "trees" and "rocks," "I" and "you") is distilled to its essence: an intricate web of impersonal phenomena and processes unfolding at an inconceivably rapid pace from moment to moment, according to precisely defined natural laws.
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ground
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Re: Dhammas beyond experience?

Post by ground »

SamKR wrote:In Abhidhamma and later literature it is said that there are paramattha dhammas, for example citta, which arise and fall away with extreme rapidity (some say billions of times within a blink of an eye), whether or not there is direct experience of such rapid change.
Seems to be a metaphysical substantialist view :sage:
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mikenz66
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Re: Dhammas beyond experience?

Post by mikenz66 »

EmptyShadow wrote:Can you please explain what do you understand as canonical Abhidhamma and non-canonical Abhidhamma?
The Canonical Abhidhamma is the books you mention. If you've ever looked at them you'll know that they consist of seemingly endless lists of classifications of citta and causality.

The middle section of the Visuddhimagga (about 1000 after the Buddha) gives a summary of causality and so on that is developed from that Abhidhamma. About six hundred years later we have the Abhidhammatthasangaha http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=826 Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi and others as: A Comprehensive Manual of the Abhidhamma. This gives a succinct summary of the Theravada interpretation of the Abhidhamma. However, it does not clearly explain what is from the Canonical Abhidhamma and what is a later elaboration. Most relevant to this thread, the "millions of citta per second" is not in the Canonical Abhidhamma.

Having said that, I wonder if those numbers are just hyperboble, to make a point about meditative experiences. The primary purpose of these texts (Sutta, Abhidhamma, Commentary..) is, in my view, an aid to making sense of experience. Even without any meditative experience at all, it's not hard to see that sense impressions appear at the six sense doors with extreme rapidity. You don't need some ancient text to figure that out... With some development of mindfulness and calm, the rising and passing of the sense impressions can be seen with increased rapidity.

:anjali:
Mike
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Alex123
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Re: Dhammas beyond experience?

Post by Alex123 »

EmptyShadow wrote:Can you please explain what do you understand as canonical Abhidhamma and non-canonical Abhidhamma?
Did you read Dhammasangani and similar books? They do not say that "these are ultimate, these are conventional". Dhammasangani does not teach momentariness either. Neither do they classify cittas into 89 types, etc.

All of these are found in later commentaries such as Visuddhimagga, Abhidhamma sangaho, etc.
SamKR
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Re: Dhammas beyond experience?

Post by SamKR »

pegembara wrote: Besides nibbana, can there be anything else beyond experience?
mikenz66 wrote:Most (all?) of us have no experience of Nibbanna. Is it worthless to consider that dhamma?
Let us exclude Nibbana for now, and just consider sankhata Dhammas. Sorry for not being clear in the OP.
fivebells wrote:We've all experienced the cessation of suffering. In my own practice, that's a much more worthwhile dhamma to consider.
Cessation of suffering? Could you make it clear?
retrofuturist wrote:See this previous conversation...
No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=12164
(I actually just re-read that topic... it was a fun one)
Thanks for the link. I will read that thread too.
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