The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi DF,

The development of insight, according to the suttas and commentaries, requires a high degree of samadhi (but not necessarily jhana):
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 07#p244480
“The words ‘insight alone’ are meant to exclude not virtue, etc., but serenity (i.e.
jhána), which is the opposite number in the pair, serenity and insight. This is for
emphasis. But the word ‘alone’ actually excludes only that concentration with distinction
[of jhána]; for concentration is classed as both access and absorption (see IV.32). Taking this stanza as the teaching for one whose vehicle is insight does not imply that there is no concentration; for no insight comes about without momentary concentration. And again, insight should be understood as the three contemplations of impermanence,
pain, and not-self; not contemplation of impermanence alone” (Vism-mhþ 9–10).
And, as I've quoted before:
"In a person of right view, right resolve comes into being. In a person of right resolve, right speech. In a person of right speech, right action. In a person of right action, right livelihood. In a person of right livelihood, right effort. In a person of right effort, right mindfulness. In a person of right mindfulness, right concentration. In a person of right concentration, right knowledge. In a person of right knowledge, right release.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
This is what Dan, and other's, are getting at. Sati and samadhi are necessary conditions for vipassana.

[Both, of course, as everyone here has stated many times, arise with right view as a condition.]

:anjali:
Mike
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

Momentary concentration, is called khanika samadhi.

and For the dry insight worker only khanika Samadhi is required. Khanki Samadhi- momentary concentration - can be either kusala or akusala. This khanika Samadhi - ekaggata cetasika- can be weak to strong. At the brief moments of vipassana nana it is strong because it is focusses so clearly, as the difference between mind door and sense door is revealed. And at the moment of penetrating Nibbana it is very strong indeed, and is even given the name 'jhana' because of its strength. it happens in a brief flash..


without khanika samadhi one couldnt read a book, or even a sentence, couldnt watch tv, or tie one laces.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:

without khanika samadhi one couldnt read a book, or even a sentence, couldnt watch tv, or tie one laces.
And this samadhi can be cultivated, strengthened by practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

dhamma follower wrote:

However, with vipassana bhavana, it is difference. The only obstacle for it is wrong view, not unwholesome mind states (see satipatthana sutta), nor a noisy or disturbing environment. So right view, or right understanding which is conditioned by hearing the Dhamma and wise considering of what has been heard is essentiel. the right view here, of vipassana type has to do with the characteristics of realities, both individual and general. So to clearly understand that dhammas arise by conditions is of most importance, in order to understand any reality which arises as anatta. Without realizing that dhammas are just dhammas, not a person, is indispensible before any higher insight can occur about the Tilakkhana, as we have learnt about the 16 stages of insight: only after one stage can the next stage unfolds.
A couple things that have been mentioned before, Right View does not require talking about Dhamma practice and the experience that arises from it in abhidhamma terms, using abhidhamma catergories. The Buddha clearly did not teach in the suttas such ideas as "ultimate realities," which is an abhidhamma notion that is not necessary. Right view has a role to play, but right view is also cultivated by the meditation practice and the insights that arise from it.
So if there is clear understanding of what are the conditions for each kind of development, there can be more reflection on what one has been taking to be "practice".
And even more importantly is the cultivation of concentration and awareness of the rise and fall of the mind/body process.
We don't deny practice, we just don't take it to really mean someone doing something, because wanting or wishing can not do proper practice. Practice has has its own conditions that we can all explore further for our selves.
Wanting and wishing can be positive factors in that they can lead one to cultivate one's understanding of the Dhamma. Your notion of "proper practice" is not supported by the suttas.
Another thing is: while many people consider the sutta to be prescriptive, AS and followers consider them to be rather descriptive.
But, of course, that has already been dealt with at length here, and as we have seen, as the commentary I quoted several times here shows us, Sujin is very wrong in that, but the suttas themselves are clearly both descriptive and perscriptive, as a careful reading of them shows. Again, the Abhidhamma, particularly the much later Abhidhamma, is not at all necessary for Dhamma practice.
If you try to read them under that light, I think you will have a very different conclusions. Above all, the Buddha's teaching should be about the Truth, so there should be a conformity in the Tipitaka. So what is the understanding which can make the whole Tipitaka in conformity with each other?
You have shown absolutely no conformity. Your above comment makes that quite clear.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Robert,
robertk wrote:Momentary concentration, is called khanika samadhi.

and For the dry insight worker only khanika Samadhi is required. Khanki Samadhi- momentary concentration - can be either kusala or akusala. This khanika Samadhi - ekaggata cetasika- can be weak to strong. At the brief moments of vipassana nana it is strong because it is focusses so clearly, as the difference between mind door and sense door is revealed. And at the moment of penetrating Nibbana it is very strong indeed, and is even given the name 'jhana' because of its strength. it happens in a brief flash..
It this a text or an interpretation? Either way it talks about strong samadhi.
robertk wrote: without khanika samadhi one couldnt read a book, or even a sentence, couldnt watch tv, or tie one laces.
Obviously your opinion is different from my interpretation of the text. I think that what I quoted, the rest of the Visuddhimagga, the Suttas, and other Theravada literature, make it clear that what is required is considerably more than what is required for reading a book.

:anjali:
Mike
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

I'm sure this can go back and forth indefinitely. I guess we all have to be our own judge of the efficaciousness of any particular path of practice and use the points of reference + guidance to the best of our own ability. In my experience what is seen as beneficial changes over time. Is "Dhamma" static or fluid?
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:I'm sure this can go back and forth indefinitely. I guess we all have to be our own judge of the efficaciousness of any particular path of practice and use the points of reference + guidance to the best of our own ability. In my experience what is seen as beneficial changes over time. Is "Dhamma" static or fluid?
Fluid.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

Thanks tilt.
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Robert,

It this a text or an interpretation? Either way it talks about strong samadhi.
robertk wrote: without khanika samadhi one couldnt read a book, or even a sentence, couldnt watch tv, or tie one laces.
Obviously your opinion is different from my interpretation of the text. I think that what I quoted, the rest of the Visuddhimagga, the Suttas, and other Theravada literature, make it clear that what is required is considerably more than what is required for reading a book.

:anjali:
Mike
Khanika has the meaning of momentary. Eggakata cetasika (concentration) arises with practically all cittas, kusala or akusala.
From Bodhi's tranlsation of the Abhidhammathasangaha

The life-span of a citta is termed, in the
Abhidhamma, a mind-moment (cittakkhana). This is a
temporal unit of such brief duration that, according
to the commentators, in the time that it takes for
lightning to flash or the eyes to blink, billions of
mind-moments can elapse. ....Within the
breadth of a mind-moment, a citta arises, performs its
momentary function, and then dissolves, conditioning
the next citta in immediate succession. Thus, through
the sequence of mind-moments, the flow of
consciousness continues uninterrupted like the waters
in a stream.” [page 156 of CMA]



“The cetasikas are mental phenomena that occur in
immediate conjunction with citta or consciousness, and
assist citta by performing more specific tasks in the
total act of cognition. The mental factors cannot
arise without citta, nor can citta arise completely
segregated from the mental factors.

[page 76 of CMA]

The four characteristics that delineate the
relationship between the citta and its concomitant
cetasikas are as follows:
(1) arising together with consciousness (ekuppaada),
(2) ceasing together with consciousness (ekanirodha),
(3) having the same object as consciousness
(ekaalambana),
(4) having the same base as consciousness
(ekavatthuka).
[page 77 of CMA]



Thus i think we agree that khanika samadhi is brief and it can arise with either kusala or akusala- it can be right or wrong concentration.
Even in wrong concentration it can be quite strong- like a safe cracker picking a lock say.

And of course the suttas are clear that one can attain while listining to Dhamma, or speaking about Dhamma, or thinking about Dhamma. On emoment can be citta with lust or anger, the next could be satipatthana with deep understanding of that moment of lust or anger.
Does samadhi strengthen at the moments there is listening and considering with right view? Yes it does, but the key point is in my opinion right view.
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

Here is a link for anyone interested on Khanika samadhi to an old discussion (its brief!)
http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index. ... hl=khanika
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Alex123
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Alex123 »

robertk wrote:Khanika has the meaning of momentary. Eggakata cetasika (concentration) arises with practically all cittas, kusala or akusala.
If all cittas already have concentration cetasika, then why did the Buddha talk about developing concentration? What is the difference between Jhāna and restless state of mind? How can you develop that which already is? You can't make water any more wet than it is.

If every second it is a new object, then how can we talk about "focusing on one object" if it is different object every second?
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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by kirk5a »

dhamma follower wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:
No iddhi is needed. When the question is WHY, each one can give his/her own answer and examine for him/her-self.
Sure, I'll tell you my answer. To settle and steady the mind to allow for clear seeing
.

Dear Kirk,

Are you refering here to samatha bhavana or vipassana bhavana?
I am referring to this:
"Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present?

"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.'

"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is inconstant'... 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is inconstant'... 'The body is inconstant"...

"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.'

"So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

What the Buddha meant by "concentration" is not some uncontrollable split-second phenomenon, arising who knows when. It is to be "developed."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Virgo
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Virgo »

Alex123 wrote:
If all cittas already have concentration cetasika, then why did the Buddha talk about developing concentration? What is the difference between Jhāna and restless state of mind?
Because that is the development of samatha, not satipatthana. Samatha jhana is very high kusala, and the jhana=labhi can use it for satipatthana when he has mastery of jhana, but most people cannot attain mastery of jhana, it was mostly only Buddha's disciples. How many true jhana masters do you see walking around nowadays?

Kevin
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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by kirk5a »

Virgo wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
If all cittas already have concentration cetasika, then why did the Buddha talk about developing concentration? What is the difference between Jhāna and restless state of mind?
Because that is the development of samatha, not satipatthana.
What the Satipatthana sutta actually says is:
[4] "Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the seven factors for Awakening. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the seven factors for Awakening? There is the case where, there being mindfulness as a factor for Awakening present within, he discerns that 'Mindfulness as a factor for Awakening is present within me.' Or, there being no mindfulness as a factor for Awakening present within, he discerns that 'Mindfulness as a factor for Awakening is not present within me.' He discerns how there is the arising of unarisen mindfulness as a factor for Awakening. And he discerns how there is the culmination of the development of mindfulness as a factor for Awakening once it has arisen. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining factors for Awakening: analysis of qualities, persistence, rapture, serenity, concentration, & equanimity.)
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Alex123
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Alex123 »

Dear Kevin,
Virgo wrote:Because that is the development of samatha, not satipatthana.
Noble Eightfold path includes both sati and samādhi.
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