Which question would that be Individual?...Individual wrote:I think this is a question best put to rest. What differences does it make?
The Intentions of Lord Buddha's Teachings
- appicchato
- Posts: 1602
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
- Location: Bridge on the River Kwae
Re: The Intentions of Lord Buddha's Teachings
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27848
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: The Intentions of Lord Buddha's Teachings
Greetings Drolma,
You quoted the following, and I'd just like to put it in context a little...
This verse was spoken to sixty arahants... in other words, sixty people who had already achieved the goal, had seen through the illusions of the world and fulfilled the holy life. This was said so that they could share the Dhamma which they had learned from the Buddha and pass it onto others so that they too could be liberated.
I trust you can see from this the difference between what the Buddha was exhorting to these sixty arahants versus that of the bodhisattva vow with which you are familiar.
In essence, the Buddha's intentions were to overcome suffering... first his own, and once he knew how to do it, use the remainder of his life to communicate the method to others so they could overcome their suffering too. The essential part is that one must focus on one's own enlightenment, achieve the goal and then they can be (and genuinely will be) of use to others.
This approach is expressed in such suttas as...
SN 47.19: Sedaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Retro.
You quoted the following, and I'd just like to put it in context a little...
Vinaya Piṭaka. 1.23 "Caratha, bhikkhave, cārikaṃ bahujana-hitāya bahujana-sukhāya lokānukampāya, atthāyahitāyasukhāya devamanussānaṃ. Mā ekena dve agamittha."Bikkus, you should all wander about for the benefit and happiness of the majority, help the people of this world, support and provide well-being to all dieties and human beings.
This verse was spoken to sixty arahants... in other words, sixty people who had already achieved the goal, had seen through the illusions of the world and fulfilled the holy life. This was said so that they could share the Dhamma which they had learned from the Buddha and pass it onto others so that they too could be liberated.
I trust you can see from this the difference between what the Buddha was exhorting to these sixty arahants versus that of the bodhisattva vow with which you are familiar.
In essence, the Buddha's intentions were to overcome suffering... first his own, and once he knew how to do it, use the remainder of his life to communicate the method to others so they could overcome their suffering too. The essential part is that one must focus on one's own enlightenment, achieve the goal and then they can be (and genuinely will be) of use to others.
This approach is expressed in such suttas as...
SN 47.19: Sedaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metta,I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Sumbhas. Now there is a Sumbhan town named Sedaka. There the Blessed One addressed the monks, "Monks!"
"Yes, lord," the monks responded.
The Blessed One said, "Once upon a time, monks, a bamboo acrobat, having erected a bamboo pole, addressed his assistant, Frying Pan: 'Come, my dear Frying Pan. Climb up the bamboo pole and stand on my shoulders.'
"'As you say, Master,' Frying Pan answered the bamboo acrobat and, climbing the bamboo pole, stood on his shoulders.
"So then the bamboo acrobat said to his assistant, 'Now you watch after me, my dear Frying Pan, and I'll watch after you. Thus, protecting one another, watching after one another, we'll show off our skill, receive our reward, and come down safely from the bamboo pole.'
"When he had said this, Frying Pan said to him, 'But that won't do at all, Master. You watch after yourself, and I'll watch after myself, and thus with each of us protecting ourselves, watching after ourselves, we'll show off our skill, receive our reward, and come down safely from the bamboo pole.'
"What Frying Pan, the assistant, said to her Master was the right way in that case.
"Monks, a frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll watch after myself.' A frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll watch after others.' When watching after oneself, one watches after others. When watching after others, one watches after oneself.
"And how does one, when watching after oneself, watch after others? Through pursuing [the practice], through developing it, through devoting oneself to it. This is how one, when watching after oneself, watches after others.
"And how does one, when watching after others, watch after oneself? Through endurance, through harmlessness, and through a mind of kindness & sympathy. This is how one, when watching after others, watches after oneself.
"A frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll watch after myself.' A frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll watch after others.' When watching after oneself, one watches after others. When watching after others, one watches after oneself."
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: The Intentions of Lord Buddha's Teachings
Thanks Drolma for sharing!
Metta
Ben
Metta
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Ngawang Drolma.
- Posts: 805
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm
Re: The Intentions of Lord Buddha's Teachings
That is very interesting Retro, thank you
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but why was the Buddha teaching to people who had already attained arahantship?
I do understand the context now. I think the way the commentator expressed this in my book is a little misleading
Kindly,
Drolma
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but why was the Buddha teaching to people who had already attained arahantship?
I do understand the context now. I think the way the commentator expressed this in my book is a little misleading
Kindly,
Drolma
- Nicholas Weeks
- Posts: 4210
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
- Location: USA West Coast
Re: The Intentions of Lord Buddha's Teachings
If an Arahant wanted to "wander about for the benefit and happiness of the majority, help the people of this world, support and provide well-being to all deities and human beings" for more than his (or her) present lifetime, could he? Or could an Arahant extend the length of his present lifetime, with the same motive?
The Mahayana has a tradition that several Arahants were asked by Buddha to protect his Dhamma until Maitreya Buddha comes - anything like that in Theravada?
The Mahayana has a tradition that several Arahants were asked by Buddha to protect his Dhamma until Maitreya Buddha comes - anything like that in Theravada?
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
Re: The Intentions of Lord Buddha's Teachings
He wasn't teaching them. He was exhorting them to go out and teach. Why? Maybe for a similar reason that Maha-Brahma asked the Buddha to teach.Drolma wrote:why was the Buddha teaching to people who had already attained arahantship?
- Peter
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
- Ngawang Drolma.
- Posts: 805
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm
Re: The Intentions of Lord Buddha's Teachings
ThanksPeter wrote:He wasn't teaching them. He was exhorting them to go out and teach. Why? Maybe for a similar reason that Maha-Brahma asked the Buddha to teach.Drolma wrote:why was the Buddha teaching to people who had already attained arahantship?
- Cittasanto
- Posts: 6646
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
- Location: Ellan Vannin
- Contact:
Re: The Intentions of Lord Buddha's Teachings
Hi All
been contemplating on this, and read some of the recent posts
I think the intention was to inspire, to live as an example for others be they gods or men, or animals
remember the 11 benefits of metta
been contemplating on this, and read some of the recent posts
I think the intention was to inspire, to live as an example for others be they gods or men, or animals
remember the 11 benefits of metta
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: The Intentions of Lord Buddha's Teachings
As a matter of curiosity, is it possible to know someone's intentions precisely? Surely we can hear the words and see the actions of our friends, enemies, parents, teachers, lovers or whatever. And we can say, "This is their intention." But if we were to take our own understanding and create some fershur point of view ... well, would this be understanding the intention or would it be simply creating one?
The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path, for example, lay out some pretty good and sensible intentions. But shall I assume that my attempts to actualize these intentions are an actualization of Gautama's intention? Shall I assume that your attempts and mine are exactly the same ... because the intention was equally clear to both of us?
I am not trying to dissuade anyone from acting on what they perceive to be good intentions. I just wonder and am a little wary of ascribing those intentions to someone else.
Just a thought.
The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path, for example, lay out some pretty good and sensible intentions. But shall I assume that my attempts to actualize these intentions are an actualization of Gautama's intention? Shall I assume that your attempts and mine are exactly the same ... because the intention was equally clear to both of us?
I am not trying to dissuade anyone from acting on what they perceive to be good intentions. I just wonder and am a little wary of ascribing those intentions to someone else.
Just a thought.
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27848
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: The Intentions of Lord Buddha's Teachings
Greetings Drolma,
Metta,
Retro.
I can't say for sure, but in this sense he, as the founder of the Sangha, 'marshalled the troops' so to speak in the interests of those who had only "a little dust" over their eyes, and had the potential to see the truths of the Dhamma. It wasn't really a conventional Dhamma talk.Drolma wrote:Sorry if this is a dumb question, but why was the Buddha teaching to people who had already attained arahantship?
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: The Intentions of Lord Buddha's Teachings
retrofuturist wrote:This approach is expressed in such suttas as...
SN 47.19: Sedaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: The Intentions of Lord Buddha's Teachings
In Buddhism, there are three holy days, one each for the Buddha, Dhamma & Sangha. The day of the Sangha commemorates when 1,250 arahants converged spontaneously to listen to a teaching of the Buddha. What did the Buddha teach them? Complex abhidhamma? Buddha taught them what is usually taught to children.Drolma wrote:Sorry if this is a dumb question, but why was the Buddha teaching to people who had already attained arahantship?
In my view, Buddha did not want arahants to become like deities, using wrathful powers, etc, to subjecate people.183. To avoid all evil, to cultivate good and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
184. Enduring patience is the highest austerity. "Nibbana is supreme," say the Buddhas. He is not a true monk who harms another, nor a true renunciate who oppresses others.
185. Not despising, not harming, restraint according to the code of monastic discipline, moderation in food, dwelling in solitude, devotion to meditation — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
- Cittasanto
- Posts: 6646
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
- Location: Ellan Vannin
- Contact:
Re: The Intentions of Lord Buddha's Teachings
Hi All
Well I think the intention to inspire is secondary to living in a way conductive to Nibbana or living if Nibbana is already realised!
but if I was going to choose a spiritual teacher to learn from it would be someone I wanted to be like not someone who was like me.
many people go to a certain teacher, read their books etc because they are like them, but that is not something I am interested in. someone to aspire to be like than someone to go drinking with!
Well I think the intention to inspire is secondary to living in a way conductive to Nibbana or living if Nibbana is already realised!
but if I was going to choose a spiritual teacher to learn from it would be someone I wanted to be like not someone who was like me.
many people go to a certain teacher, read their books etc because they are like them, but that is not something I am interested in. someone to aspire to be like than someone to go drinking with!
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
- christopher:::
- Posts: 1327
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am
Re: The Intentions of Lord Buddha's Teachings
Beautiful little gem, indeed, Drolma. Thank you for sharing that!Drolma wrote:Coming from vajrayana, I appreciated finding this gem, as there is a direct parallel between this and the encouragement I've received from all of my teachers to cultivate bodhicitta. Just wanted to share it here.Bikkus, you should all wander about for the benefit and happiness of the majority, help the people of this world, support and provide well-being to all dieties and human beings.
Kind regards,
Drolma
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
Re: The Intentions of Lord Buddha's Teachings
Actually, this gem is usually translated 'for the many' rather than the 'majority'. Still, it is not as ignorant as 'all'.christopher::: wrote:Beautiful little gem, indeed, Drolma. Thank you for sharing that!