The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

kirk5a wrote:
robertk wrote:But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.
For the development of vipassana, concentration has to be developed. So how, in your view, is concentration developed?
i think i quoted this sutta eariler in this thread.
Anguttara Nikaya 10:121
Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states.
For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance springs up.
right view always comes together with right concentration and right mindfulness. it is true that moments of patipati , practice, those brief moments when dhammas are known directly, come with higher degrees of (right) concentration.
daverupa
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by daverupa »

mikenz66 wrote:Exactly how those conditions arise is the key question and the area of disagreement, it seems.
AN 10.71 wrote:"If a monk would wish, 'May I attain — whenever I want, without strain, without difficulty — the four jhanas that are heightened mental states, pleasant abidings in the here-&-now,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to inner tranquillity of awareness, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings.
AN 4.94 wrote:"As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, his duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) fermentations.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by kirk5a »

robertk wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
robertk wrote:But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.
For the development of vipassana, concentration has to be developed. So how, in your view, is concentration developed?
i think i quoted this sutta eariler in this thread.
Anguttara Nikaya 10:121
Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states.
For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance springs up.
right view always comes together with right concentration and right mindfulness. it is true that moments of patipati , practice, those brief moments when dhammas are known directly, come with higher degrees of (right) concentration.
And these "brief moments" you're talking about, in your view are they conditioned in any respect, in any way along the line, by volition?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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volition , cetana, comes with practically all moments. Sometimes strong, sometimes weak and barely noticeble.
Conventionally we decide to be buddhists, decide to follow this teacher or that teacher.
But at the level of elements there are merely certain types of citta, accompanied by cetana, and with wisdom or without, that perform their functions of being interested in this or that (manipulated by the strings of either wisdom or greed or ignorance).

One story from the Commentaries tells of a queen who was extremely beautiful. She had heard that the Buddha spoke about foulness of the body so she resisted meeting him. Her King, who was a sotapanna finally told his men to bring her to the Buddha's talk. But still she insisted on staying at the edge of the crowd. The Buddha conjured an image of a beautiful woman who slowly aged and then died. The queen had no wish to see this or to listen to the talk but seeing and hearing understanding grew and she became enlightened where she stood.

Overall I think it is because of not really seeing the way that we place emphasis on choosing this way or that way. If wisdom grows then I think volition is seen as merely an element, often associated with lobha, and it is other elements that play the main role in this path.
And also elements are so ephemeral..
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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by kirk5a »

robertk wrote:volition , cetana, comes with practically all moments. Sometimes strong, sometimes weak and barely noticeble.
Conventionally we decide to be buddhists, decide to follow this teacher or that teacher.
But at the level of elements there are merely certain types of citta, accompanied by cetana, and with wisdom or without, that perform their functions of being interested in this or that (manipulated by the strings of either wisdom or greed or ignorance).
...
Overall I think it is because of not really seeing the way that we place emphasis on choosing this way or that way. If wisdom grows then I think volition is seen as merely an element, often associated with lobha, and it is other elements that play the main role in this path.
And also elements are so ephemeral..
Your assertion is "often" not "always." So you can't really say for sure whether the choices of others are associated with lobha or wisdom.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

That is true. :anjali:
My own volitions are almost always with lobha. It covers everything, so this path is not so obvious. But if we mix wrong view with lobha then it gets harder: hence the reason for this thread- to look at the causes for wisdom/rightview.
Nyana
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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retrofuturist wrote:Despite what some people think, Nanavira Thera was not being malicious when he said the following in the preface to Notes On Dhamma... he was being incisively accurate on the state of play.
Nanavira Thera wrote:These books of the Pali Canon correctly represent the Buddha's Teaching, and can be regarded as trustworthy throughout. (Vinayapitaka:) Suttavibhanga, Mahāvagga, Cūlavagga; (Suttapitaka:) Dīghanikāya, Majjhimanikāya, Samyuttanikāya, Anguttaranikāya, Suttanipāta, Dhammapada, Udāna, Itivuttaka, Theratherīgāthā. (The Jātaka verses may be authentic, but they do not come within the scope of these Notes.) No other Pali books whatsoever should be taken as authoritative; and ignorance of them (and particularly of the traditional Commentaries) may be counted a positive advantage, as leaving less to be unlearned.
I don't think Ñāṇavīra was necessarily being malicious, but I don't think that he was being "incisively accurate" either. It seems to me that Ñāṇavīra's view as quoted in the above passage is an extremist position.

Extreme #1: All Pāli commentaries are useless and have no positive value.

Extreme #2: All Pāli commentaries are perfect and essential.
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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by kirk5a »

robertk wrote:That is true. :anjali:
My own volitions are almost always with lobha. It covers everything, so this path is not so obvious. But if we mix wrong view with lobha then it gets harder: hence the reason for this thread- to look at the causes for wisdom/rightview.
"Wrong view" - define, please. What is it, exactly, that you are calling "wrong view"?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by mikenz66 »

robertk wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
robertk wrote:But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.
For the development of vipassana, concentration has to be developed. So how, in your view, is concentration developed?
i think i quoted this sutta eariler in this thread.
Anguttara Nikaya 10:121
Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states.
For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance springs up.
right view always comes together with right concentration and right mindfulness. it is true that moments of patipati , practice, those brief moments when dhammas are known directly, come with higher degrees of (right) concentration.
This text is common, and appears to be the same as the extract from AN 1.103 that I quoted in these posts:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p243244
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 09#p243109

It's interesting to see the different interpretations of this passage. Robert interprets it in terms of short timescales, of the whole process recurring moment to moment. Most teachers I know (such as Ajahn Brahm in the link above) talk about a much longer timescale, where the effort, mindfulness, and so on are developed over a period of time, usually involving some sort of "formal" practice. In either case, of course, the actions are conditioned by causes and conditions, not by some self willing itself to be a certain way. To paraphrase what Ajahn Brahm says in the talk I linked to, his practice was conditioned by what Ajahn Chah instructed him to do, which was conditioned by his teacher, and so on, back to the Buddha:
Ajahn Brahm wrote:that was the great thing about a Buddha arising ... it makes enlightenment possible... just cause and effect
:anjali:
Mike
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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by kirk5a »

mikenz66 wrote:In either case, of course, the actions are conditioned by causes and conditions, not by some self willing itself to be a certain way. To paraphrase what Ajahn Brahm says in the talk I linked to, his practice was conditioned by what Ajahn Chah instructed him to do, which was conditioned by his teacher, and so on, back to the Buddha:
Ajahn Brahm wrote:that was the great thing about a Buddha arising ... it makes enlightenment possible... just cause and effect
yes... but he did what he was instructed to do. Which is a matter of volitional activity. It doesn't just happen "on it's own."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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But isn't that volition conditioned and not-self?
"Mental formations, O monks, are not-self; if mental formations were self, then mental formations would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding mental formations: 'May my perception be thus, may my mental formations not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since mental formations are not-self, therefore, mental formations lead to affliction and it does not obtain regarding mental formations: 'May my mental formations be thus, may my mental formations not be thus.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .mend.html
:anjali:
Mike
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Alex123
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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mikenz66 wrote:But isn't that volition conditioned and not-self?
"Mental formations, O monks, are not-self; if mental formations were self, then mental formations would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding mental formations: 'May my perception be thus, may my mental formations not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since mental formations are not-self, therefore, mental formations lead to affliction and it does not obtain regarding mental formations: 'May my mental formations be thus, may my mental formations not be thus.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .mend.html
:anjali:
Mike
What if a person is dropped into deep part of a lake. Will he attempt to swim to safety, or do nothing except thinking that "conditions will decide"?
Last edited by Alex123 on Mon May 06, 2013 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by kirk5a »

mikenz66 wrote:But isn't that volition conditioned and not-self?
Yes, BUT it doesn't happen "on its own." If the individual remains in a state of passivity, no volition happens, no volitional activity happens. The instructions are not carried out until the individual volitionally carries them out. That is not self-view. It is simply - volitional action in line with the instructions given.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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Well, sure, there has to be doing:
... it is not proper for you to assert that, "Whatever a person experiences — pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain — all is caused by what was done in the past.
...
"And how is striving fruitful, how is exertion fruitful? There is the case where a monk, when not loaded down, does not load himself down with pain, nor does he reject pleasure that accords with the Dhamma, although he is not fixated on that pleasure. He discerns that 'When I exert a [physical, verbal, or mental] fabrication against this cause of stress, then from the fabrication of exertion there is dispassion. When I look on with equanimity at that cause of stress, then from the development of equanimity there is dispassion.' So he exerts a fabrication against the cause of stress where there comes dispassion from the fabrication of exertion, and develops equanimity with regard to the cause of stress where there comes dispassion from the development of equanimity. Thus the stress coming from the cause of stress for which there is dispassion through the fabrication of exertion is exhausted & the stress resulting from the cause of stress for which there is dispassion through the development of equanimity is exhausted.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:anjali:
Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:Well, sure, there has to be doing:
... it is not proper for you to assert that, "Whatever a person experiences — pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain — all is caused by what was done in the past.
...
"And how is striving fruitful, how is exertion fruitful? There is the case where a monk, when not loaded down, does not load himself down with pain, nor does he reject pleasure that accords with the Dhamma, although he is not fixated on that pleasure. He discerns that 'When I exert a [physical, verbal, or mental] fabrication against this cause of stress, then from the fabrication of exertion there is dispassion. When I look on with equanimity at that cause of stress, then from the development of equanimity there is dispassion.' So he exerts a fabrication against the cause of stress where there comes dispassion from the fabrication of exertion, and develops equanimity with regard to the cause of stress where there comes dispassion from the development of equanimity. Thus the stress coming from the cause of stress for which there is dispassion through the fabrication of exertion is exhausted & the stress resulting from the cause of stress for which there is dispassion through the development of equanimity is exhausted.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:anjali:
Mike
This passage totally undermines the Sujinist point of view on any number of levels.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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