the 5th precept

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
rowyourboat
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by rowyourboat » Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:59 pm

It is interesting that no one is thinking along the lines of karma but thinking along scientific evidence. Perhaps working on Right View is in order? Right view is the source of the path.

"The drinking of fermented & distilled liquors — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from drinking fermented & distilled liquors is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to mental derangement."

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Re: the 5th precept

Post by Individual » Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:06 pm

rowyourboat wrote:It is interesting that no one is thinking along the lines of karma but thinking along scientific evidence. Perhaps working on Right View is in order? Right view is the source of the path.

"The drinking of fermented & distilled liquors — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from drinking fermented & distilled liquors is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to mental derangement."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta

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http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra

rowyourboat
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by rowyourboat » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:12 am

"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view...

"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view.
-Mahacattasarika sutta
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suriyopama
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by suriyopama » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:40 pm

Manapa wrote:When I was looking at different translations of the pali, it generally stated Intoxicants! or mind altering substances! it has only been more recently (well a few years ago but closer to now than the other translations) that I have seen more and more translations refer to alcohol and drugs.
I would say it is refraining from all Intoxicants that cloud the judgements and loosen personal restraint! not including Medical drugs used for specific treatments which may or may not have a side effect of intoxication as long as they were specifically prescribed too the person using them and no other option was, or is available which would do the at least the same job!
Hi Manapa, I believe that "mind altering substances" is the best translation that embraces all substances. Even in the smallest alteration.

During my last retreat at Wat Boonyawad Forest, at the second week I had a muscle pain at my hand. The monks gave me one analgesic, and that was the end of my "sati"!! I became a little bit dull for 3 days. But, as someone said, "there is not such thing as a bad meditation", It's been a positive experience to experiment how a soft medicine, that I used to take many times in the past, can alter the mind when you're trying to maintain constant mindfulness 24h, even if it is a prescribed drug, it can take you out of the path, even if you're trying to apply correct effort.

I think that it's not neccesary to specify a list of what is "allowed" and what is not, or what is said at the vinnaya rules. You'll see for yourself what is good and what is not when you're trying to practice seriously.

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Re: the 5th precept

Post by Phra Chuntawongso » Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:09 pm

Hi.
As a monk I would say that the 5th precept has to include all mind altering drugs,except those for medical purposes.
At the temple where I am smoking is a big no no.
Coffee and tea can both be taken but not after midday :coffee:
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by Individual » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:14 pm

Nanadhaja wrote:Hi.
As a monk I would say that the 5th precept has to include all mind altering drugs,except those for medical purposes.
At the temple where I am smoking is a big no no.
Coffee and tea can both be taken but not after midday :coffee:
With metta
When we think of "mind altering substances," we think of the medical notion of psychoactive compounds and it seems to be for this reason that people focus so much on caffeine. If caffeine was a more basic component of food, even if it had the same effects it has now people would not regard it as such.

How do I know? Well, science has also shown that a lot of people seek processed sugars and fats because of the effects on the brain's pleasure center, yet I have yet to see anybody ever mention abstaining from caffeine-free sodas, candy bars, and potato chips regarding the fifth precept because they misunderstand it as being about drugs. But people who indulge in sugar get a "sugar rush" and "sugar crash", that is similar to what you experience from caffeine. Eating too much fat leads to cardiovascular problems and eating too much sugar leads to diabetes. That's not good kamma either, right? Even though it's not a drug.

Instead of listing the things you can or can't eat and when, wouldn't it be simpler to have a basic rule: "Be mindful of the effects your diet has on your mind and do not ingest anything with unwholesome intent"?
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra

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Phra Chuntawongso
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by Phra Chuntawongso » Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:50 pm

Hi Individual.
I agree.Many foods do give us some sort of rush.
I myself used to be a real coffee addict.A friend of mine once counted me having 30 cups of coffee one saturday.I cut back drastically when that was brought to my attention.Actually I quit out right but the shakes I got were just incredible,so I went back to the coffee and then started to cut down on it.
I remember some years ago when I was still in New Zealand some guys getting stoned on datura tea.They had been drinking beer and smashed the bottles.While they were stoned they were walking around over the broken glass not feeling it.By the time they were found one of the guys had bled to death.Thankfully the other two survived.
The police did not prosecute saying that datura was a common garden plant found throughout the country and therefore not illegal.When some people said that if you could get high on it,perhaps it should be made illegal.
The police response was that if you were going to ban everything that got you high then they would have to close down all the supermarkets.
Many meditation centers do not allow the drinking of coffee or of tea stating that it affects your meditation.
As I said before,at my temple this rule is not in place,however we are supposed to mindful in respect to food and drink.Only taking what is necessary and no more.
I personally have no more than 2 cups a day.Anymore and I think sitting meditation would be off the agenda. :coffee:
And crawling on the planets face,some insects called the human race.
Lost in time
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Ytrog
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by Ytrog » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:04 pm

How would you get rid of the habit to use mind altering substances? I try lessening with caffeine, but I sleep so bad that I need it just to do my job properly. I'm afraid that going cold-turkey would result in withdrawal effects (had it before, after not using it for half a day).

I apologise if this isn't the right place to ask, but I would like to get rid of that almost constant restlesness during the day.
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.

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Hanzze
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by Hanzze » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:37 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: the 5th precept

Post by Sunrise » Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:47 pm

Although the precept says to stay away from alcohol (or any other intoxicant for that matter) I personally think it is fine to take prescribed drugs on medical purposes or consume other sorts of drinks under certain circumstances that force you to do so like harsh weather conditions for example. It is up to the practitioner to keep them in control so that it will not be a hindrance to the practice.

The idea of the precept is that, a person under intoxication is not generally in a clear state of mind. Lack of mental focus and clarity is a hindrance to the Buddhist practice and meditation. In such a state, there is a better chance for a person to engage in wrong-doings and break the other precepts as well which will lead to greater difficulties to the practice. Therefore it makes sense to abide by the precept unless there are other circumstances that force you to do otherwise. It is up to you to make sure you are in control. The precepts are there just to guide you. Of course that is just my opinion :smile:

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Re: the 5th precept

Post by Sunrise » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:03 am

Hanzze wrote: ...like the intoxicant of hanging around in a internet forum, it is just to stay at your practice :rofl: to less rules, to less rules let us wait for the next Buddha and read dhamma meanwhile. :reading:
Not sure what you are trying to say here but why are you waiting for the next Buddha?

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Re: the 5th precept

Post by Sunrise » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:42 am

Hanzze wrote: That we do not easy understand the precepts today because we are very interpretation orientated. We loose in the interpretation while we oversee the point. The roots of the precepts is compassion. When we stay at compassion we will see that even we misinterpret something we cause suffering. So that brings us back to the point. Human love laws, prisons, and leader, because they need always an anchor. An anchor to claim somebody else as the reason for faults.
In later times there have been made more than 200 precepts for monks, because they could not get the point. Just keep compassion alive while looking if something is wrong or right.
Focus only on not harming and not killing. You will find the cause of suffering by your self.
Or one step higher. Focus only on lying and you also will keep all other precepts as you had find out the sufferings cause.
Do not get lost in interpretations, trust the Buddha. He is inside of you!
I don't think we disagree here but why are you waiting for the next Buddha? :smile:

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cooran
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Re: the 5th precept

Post by cooran » Mon May 06, 2013 2:44 am

Hello all,

On New Years Eve, at the Forest Monastery I attend, we all formally took the Five Precepts for a year. We were requested in the weeks prior to the ceremony, to reflect deeply, and only take them if we were committed to follow the Precepts fully for the time.

Having taken them, I felt the one on Right Speech would be the hardest one for me. However, this did not prove to be the case.

My daughter was married a few weeks ago, and at the Reception, I had some wine with the Toasts. Everyone was celebrating, and I didn't give it much thought (obviously). I didn't feel the slightest 'glow' and wouldn't have had more than a glass and a half in total through the whole evening.

However, attending at the Monastery the next week, I asked Bhante about it. He said I had definitely broken the Precept, and had now confessed the breach to him. The next week on Uposatha it was necessary for me to take the Precepts again - which I did.

This has certainly brought home to me that the Precepts are not a casual formality to be "stretched" to fit around everyday customs and what we are feeling inclined to do.

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: the 5th precept

Post by Digity » Mon May 06, 2013 3:51 am

A few weeks ago I was trying to talk myself into breaking the 5th precept for a vacation I was planning to go on where there would be tons of drinking. In the end I realized I was just fooling myself. I think it's important to stick to the precepts no matter what. It helps build strength in character and an ability to resist outside pressures, which is important, especially in the world we live in today. I can see how a wedding situation is tough. The last wedding I went to I hadn't taken the precepts...it was actuallly closely after that wedding that I decided to give up alcohol and take up the 5 precepts. I'm curious to see how things will go at the next wedding I'm invited too, but I'll keep your story in mind. Good luck moving forward and glad you took the precepts again.

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Re: the 5th precept

Post by DNS » Mon May 06, 2013 4:34 am

cooran wrote: My daughter was married a few weeks ago, and at the Reception, I had some wine with the Toasts. Everyone was celebrating, and I didn't give it much thought (obviously). I didn't feel the slightest 'glow' and wouldn't have had more than a glass and a half in total through the whole evening.
Hi Chris,

Thanks for sharing that. On special occasions like that there are usually some sparking grape juices or other non-alcoholic drinks that can be used for toasts. You didn't drink that much and no one was harmed (other than perhaps yourself). I know some consider drinking alcohol a serious violation because it can lead to so many other actions, but since it didn't in this case, I wouldn't see it as too serious a transgression. In my opinion intentionally harming another being is much more serious, which of course you didn't do. But, yes I agree that the precepts are not a casual formality to be stretched for customs.

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