No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Dinsdale
Posts: 6117
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri May 03, 2013 8:34 am

Zakattack wrote: For practicality, I would suggest to view Anapanasati as: 1st tetrad: 75% samatha 25% vipassana; 2nd tetrad: 50% samatha 50% vipassana; 3rd tetrad 25% samatha 75% vipassana; 4th tetrad 100% vipassana. As for the Pali, the same word 'paṭisaṃvedī' (experiencing; sensitive to) is used in the 1st, 2nd & 3th tetrads.
Interesting breakdown. I do agree that the 4 tetrads are describing a progression from samatha to vipassana, and of course samatha and vipassana aren't mutually exclusive.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Post by daverupa » Fri May 03, 2013 10:51 am

porpoise wrote:IMO some interpretations of the 4 tetrads are basically just describing satipatthana practice, which seems to me missing the point.
Actually, the point is the suppression of the hindrances and bringing the awakening factors to fulfillment by development. As to that, the Anapanasati Sutta says
"And how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?

"And how are the four frames of reference developed & pursued so as to bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination?
I'm very unsure about this appellation "just" with reference to satipatthana; it is, after all, the direct path to awakening, which is why I have said
both samatha and vipassana ought already to have begun development prior [to anapanasati]
in reference to the OP.

(For example, in the Kayagatasati Sutta we learn a method of breathing which is one way, among many, of
how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.
In this respect, we can see that anapanasati is itself simply a certain way of doing satipatthana, one which fulfills satipatthana and, in short, facilitates jhana.)

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

User avatar
Kamran
Posts: 458
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:14 am

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Post by Kamran » Fri May 03, 2013 1:45 pm

Piti with just breath can take a long time, but if you add one of the brahma viharas, in particular mudita(appreciative joy), piti often arises right from the beginning.

If interested, I have found the below combination of breath and Mudita to cause piti to arise consistently:

1) still the mind with breath for 20 min.

2) Then while still noticing the breath, think of a memory that made you feel happy for someone, such as your children opening presents on Christmas day.

3) Notice the subtle warm pleasant feeling that arises.

4) Drop the memory and focus on the feeling, and smile to yourself both inwardly and outwardly....spread the feeling around your whole body by moving your awareness around ( body scan).

5) Piti sensation arises.

6) Continue following the breath, smiling, and bathing yourself in the warm "happiness for others" feeling.
"Silence gives answers"

Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi

User avatar
fivebells
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:52 am

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Post by fivebells » Fri May 03, 2013 9:26 pm

I agree, Kamran. That is a great way to practice.

User avatar
Mojo
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:23 am

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Post by Mojo » Sat May 04, 2013 3:13 am

I've started experimenting with Thanissaro's instructions. I think perhaps they may be what I need right now. There have been some posts about the relationship between samadhi and mindfulness that have helped me think about anapanasati in a different light than I had before. Thank you all for your input!

User avatar
Mojo
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:23 am

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Post by Mojo » Tue May 07, 2013 4:48 am

I am waiting for a copy of Thanisareo's Each and Every Breath to arrive in the mail but had printed the "method" portion from the pdf when I was at the library last week and am wondering if the book later goes on to show how to develop all the steps of Anapanasati or if this book is strictly the foundation of breathing? I haven't had the opportunity yet to read past the "method".

Thanks,

Mojo

User avatar
Kamran
Posts: 458
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:14 am

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Post by Kamran » Tue May 07, 2013 2:05 pm

Thanissaro is an excellent choice in my opinion due to the daily talks he provides that address problems you encounter in real-life meditation practice. Instructions only go so far; you have to figure things out yourself by practicing.

You may want to explore his collection of talks that accompany his "With Each and Every Breath" manual.

http://www.dhammatalks.org/mp3_collecti ... verybreath
"Silence gives answers"

Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi

User avatar
Mojo
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:23 am

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Post by Mojo » Tue May 07, 2013 2:16 pm

Kamran wrote:Thanissaro is an excellent choice in my opinion due to the daily talks he provides that address problems you encounter in real-life meditation practice. Instructions only go so far; you have to figure things out yourself by practicing.

You may want to explore his collection of talks that accompany his "With Each and Every Breath" manual.

http://www.dhammatalks.org/mp3_collecti ... verybreath

Thank you

frank k
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Post by frank k » Tue May 07, 2013 5:15 pm

Ajahn Thanissaro's new book on meditation is excellent.
In the Chinese Agama parallel to anapana 16 steps, they are much more explicit in step 3 of anapanassati, "sabba kaaya patisamvedi", "experiencing the whole [anatomical] body". I found that sutra passage very helpful to my practice in developing piti and sukha.

The following is where the third step of the 16 steps of breathing meditation is explained in the sutra itself:

T15n0614_p0275b25(08)║念諸息遍身。亦念息出入。
T15n0614_p0275b26(05)║悉觀身中諸出息入息。
T15n0614_p0275b27(14)║覺知遍至身中乃至足指遍諸毛孔如水入沙。
T15n0614_p0275b28(13)║息出覺知從足至髮遍諸毛孔亦如水入沙。譬如[夢-夕+棐]囊入出皆滿。
T15n0614_p0275b29(05)║口鼻風入出亦爾。觀身周遍見風行處。
T15n0614_p0275c01(07)║如藕根孔亦如魚網。復心非獨口鼻觀息入出。
T15n0614_p0275c02(06)║一切毛孔及九孔中。亦見息入息出。
T15n0614_p0275c03(09)║是故知息遍諸身

“One is mindfully aware of various breaths suffusing the whole body, as one attends to the exhalation and inhalation of the breath. As one pervasively observes the various kinds of inhalation and exhalation inside the body, one becomes aware and comprehends what is happening throughout the body, up to and including one’s toes and pores—[awareness] pervades as if water seeps into sands. In the same way, with [each] out-breath, awareness and understanding pervade—from the toes to the hairs, permeating all the pores—as if water seeps into sands. Just like a sack that is completely filled from its bottom to its opening, so too should one experience the body being saturated this way with [each] in-breath coming in from mouth [and/or] nose. One should perceive that throughout the body, where ‘wind’ traverses, it is as if it traverses through the holes of a lotus root; it is as if it traverses through the eyes of a fish net.

Furthermore, one should not just perceive the breath as going in and out of one’s mouth [and/or] nose; one should also see that the breath comes in and out from all the pores and from the nine orifices of the body. For this reason, one should understand that the breath pervades throughout the body."
(translation from chinese to english by Dr. William Chu)
http://www.audtip.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Audio Sutta Recordings

Zakattack
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:07 am

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Post by Zakattack » Tue May 07, 2013 8:33 pm

frank k wrote:In the Chinese Agama parallel to anapana 16 steps, they are much more explicit in step 3 of anapanassati, "sabba kaaya patisamvedi", "experiencing the whole [anatomical] body".
In the Pali, such an interpretation does not arise. The Pali states:
Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṃ, bhikkhave, evaṃ vadāmi yadidaṃ – assāsapassāsā.

I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies.
Here, the Pali emphasises the in-&-out breath (rather than the anatomical physical body) & also calls the in-&-out breath a 'kaya' ('body'). In Pali, the word 'sabba' generally means 'all' rather than 'whole' (kevala). The Pali states there are 'bodies among bodies', i.e., plural bodies. The different bodies include the 'breath body', 'physical body' (rupa kaya) & 'mental bodies' (nama kaya). "Sabba kaaya patisamvedi" thus can mean 'experiencing all bodies', as described in the Dipa Sutta:
So if a monk should wish: 'May neither my [anatomical] body be fatigued nor my eyes, and may my mind, through lack of clinging/sustenance, be released from fermentations,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing.

Dipa Sutta
The most important aspect of practising Anapanasati is not the body but establishing (upaṭṭhāna) the mind in right mindfulness. Step 3 of anapanassati "sabba kaaya patisamvedi" is experiencing/knowing/feeling how the state of mind influences the breathing and how the breathing, in turn, influences the physical body. Ultimately, all practise is related to the mind. If the quality of mind required for anapanasati is not comprehended then limits to progress will occur.

:smile:

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Post by daverupa » Tue May 07, 2013 9:22 pm

Zakattack wrote:
frank k wrote:In the Chinese Agama parallel to anapana 16 steps, they are much more explicit in step 3 of anapanassati, "sabba kaaya patisamvedi", "experiencing the whole [anatomical] body".
...The Pali states:
Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṃ, bhikkhave, evaṃ vadāmi yadidaṃ – assāsapassāsā.

I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies.
... The different bodies...
However many different bodies, the first tetrad is to experience them all alongside the breath, and then to calm involvement with that (calming kaya-sankhara). You say that
Step 3 of anapanassati "sabba kaaya patisamvedi" is experiencing/knowing/feeling how the state of mind influences the breathing and how the breathing, in turn, influences the physical body.
...but I find that step three is simply training in order to experience all such bodies, whereby step four is training to calm any & all sankhara to do with them. This includes the breath, but is certainly not limited to that one among many.

Focus on the breath to the exclusion of other bodies seems to go against what step three instructs, as far as I can see.

But some people seem to conflate satipatthana, kayagatasati, and anapanasati, which generates differences in phrasing while the meaning may actually be in alignment.

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Post by Ben » Tue May 07, 2013 10:52 pm

Please be aware of DW's terms of service to avoid posts disappearing from view.

6. When quoting authors or texts please cite a source.We don't want to accidentally plagiarize other peoples' work. Please provide a website address when applicable if your information is taken from a website. Do not simply copy and paste an entire article. It is best to copy and paste only a few sentences that are appropriate and then discuss how it is important and cite the source.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

frank k
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Post by frank k » Wed May 08, 2013 3:43 am

Zack,
I'm aware of the Vism. interpretation of kaya as whole "body of breath" for step 3 anapana. You are probably aware of the schools of Theravada that interpret step 3 as whole anatomical body. I'm not here to debate which interpretation is correct, believe whatever works for you. Whatever interpretation people believe, just for your reference consider the Chinese Agama version of step 3 anapana clearly, unambiguously, and with copious similes asserts the "whole anatomical body" interpretation.

Regarding the statement :
Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṃ, bhikkhave, evaṃ vadāmi yadidaṃ – assāsapassāsā.
I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies.

I take that to mean step 1 and 2 of anapana, (clear knowing of long/short in/out breath), count as a physical "kaaya" to justify it's place in the first tetrad of anapanasati 16 steps and first tetrad satipatthana, kayaanupassi.

Also, looking at MN 119, (thanissaro trans. from ATI)
"Furthermore, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman ...

For the "whole anatomical body", that sutta passage makes sense. If we go with "body of breath", how exactly do you permeate, pervade, suffuse and fill "body of breath" with pleasure and rapture? Does "body of breath" have a nervous system that sends signals of piti and sukha to the brain?

Note all 4 jhana similes (corresponding to 4 jhaanas) use that statement "He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure"

Also, the canonical formula for 3rd jhana states "sukhanca kayena patisamvedi". Kaya as anatomical body would seem to be the most natural interpretation.
http://www.audtip.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Audio Sutta Recordings

Dinsdale
Posts: 6117
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed May 08, 2013 8:44 am

daverupa wrote:
porpoise wrote:IMO some interpretations of the 4 tetrads are basically just describing satipatthana practice, which seems to me missing the point.
Actually, the point is the suppression of the hindrances and bringing the awakening factors to fulfillment by development.
In this respect, we can see that anapanasati is itself simply a certain way of doing satipatthana, one which fulfills satipatthana and, in short, facilitates jhana.)
I'm not following your logic, Dave. Suppression of the hindrances and facilitating jhana are aspects of samatha, not aspects of satipatthana. I agree that you can look at the 4 tetrads simply as a way of "doing" satipatthana - but then why bother with the 4 tetrad approach, why not just work directly with the 4 frames of satipatthana as per MN10?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Post by daverupa » Wed May 08, 2013 11:19 am

porpoise wrote:
daverupa wrote:
porpoise wrote:IMO some interpretations of the 4 tetrads are basically just describing satipatthana practice, which seems to me missing the point.
Actually, the point is the suppression of the hindrances and bringing the awakening factors to fulfillment by development.
In this respect, we can see that anapanasati is itself simply a certain way of doing satipatthana, one which fulfills satipatthana and, in short, facilitates jhana.)
I'm not following your logic, Dave.
Well, let's have a look.
Suppression of the hindrances and facilitating jhana are aspects of samatha, not aspects of satipatthana.
Since the hindrances and awakening factors are common to all versions of the Satipatthana Sutta's fourth category, I think they are indeed both aspects of satipatthana. Furthermore, since samatha and vipassana are paired qualities it seems to me that thinking of them as dichotomous halves of practice is rather inaccurate. One or another may be natively more robust, or one or another may be where one's awareness gives emphasis, but they go hand in hand and ought to be brought into balance as much as possible at every stage of practice.
I agree that you can look at the 4 tetrads simply as a way of "doing" satipatthana - but then why bother with the 4 tetrad approach, why not just work directly with the 4 frames of satipatthana as per MN10?
Anapanasati is already working directly with the 4 frames, and fulfills them as well, so you seem to be assuming something here which I don't follow. The answer to "why bother" is that you can't do anapanasati correctly (or, for great fruit & benefit) in the first place without it fulfilling satipatthana, which is how one brings the awakening factors to fulfillment by development. Doing this "...dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment"...
MN 118 wrote:...is how the seven factors for awakening are developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination."
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 44 guests