Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
mogg
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Post by mogg » Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:50 pm

PeterB wrote:I think it is what Ben said Coyote..I think its parallel evolution.
If you get a bunch of people in caves..some in the Himalayas, some in Greece and if those guys watch their breath and calm their minds then certain results will follow.
How those people then interpret those results may vary.

There is a very interesting record of a conversation between Thomas Merton and an old Tibetan hermit..although each practised according to their own tradition, when they compared notes they were amazed at the similarities in experience.
At one point the Tibetan laughs and says... " what is happening here..this cant be right."...
Thomas Merton?!

In April 1966, Merton underwent a surgical procedure to treat debilitating back pain. While recuperating in a Louisville hospital, he fell in love with Margie Smith,[26] a student nurse assigned to his care whom he referred to in his personal diary as "M". He wrote poems to her and reflected on the relationship in "A Midsummer Diary for M." Merton struggled to maintain his vows while being deeply in love. He remained chaste, never consummating the relationship.[note 1] After ending the relationship, he recommitted himself to his vows.[27]

It appears he didn't get too far on the path Peter.

PeterB
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Post by PeterB » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:55 pm

On the contrary. I think the fact that " he remained chaste " suggests that he did.
The sign of a person who is aware is not that they are human and tempted. Its the fact that they keep their vows.
Certainly the Dalai Lama thought so.
He described Merton as having an extraordinary insight into the nature of things.

Justsit
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Post by Justsit » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:18 pm

His Holiness at Merton's grave

Image

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ground
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Post by ground » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:34 am

When there are two springs conveying water that originates from the same subterrestrial water reservoir it may not be appropriate to say that one spring "borrows" from the other spring. :sage:

Zakattack
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Post by Zakattack » Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:21 am

ground wrote:When there are two springs conveying water that originates from the same subterrestrial water reservoir it may not be appropriate to say that one spring "borrows" from the other spring.
In Wikipedia, is the idea of one Samyaksambuddha different from the idea of two springs? What of the Christian idea of 'Only Begotten Son'?

:shrug:
Samyaksambuddhas (Pali: sammasambuddha) gain Nirvana by their own efforts, and discover the Dhamma without having a teacher to point it out. They then lead others to enlightenment by teaching the Dhamma in a time or world where it has been forgotten or has not been taught before, because a Samyaksambuddha does not depend upon a tradition that stretches back to a previous Samyaksambuddha, but instead discovers the path anew. In the Bahudhātuka Sutta ("Many Kinds of Elements Discourse," MN 115), the Buddha tells Ven. Ānanda:

It is impossible, it cannot happen that two Accomplished Ones, Fully Enlightened Ones, could arise contemporaneously in one world-system—there is no such possibility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhahood

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ground
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Post by ground » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:23 am

Zakattack wrote:
ground wrote:When there are two springs conveying water that originates from the same subterrestrial water reservoir it may not be appropriate to say that one spring "borrows" from the other spring.
In Wikipedia, is the idea of one Samyaksambuddha different from the idea of two springs? What of the Christian idea of 'Only Begotten Son'?

:shrug:
Since you are quoting my words and since your response does not appear to match the intended message ...
"the same subterrestrial water reservoir" stands for the source of human creativity in the context of humans dealing with their dilemma
"two springs" stands for the two products of this source being mentioned in the context of this thread. Actually there are more than two springs since there are more religions in this world of humans.

:sage:

Zakattack
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Post by Zakattack » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:33 am

ground wrote:"the same subterrestrial water reservoir" stands for the source of human creativity in the context of humans dealing with their dilemma
Does the literature about Jesus include a search for enlightenment to solve suffering? Or did Father God send his Only Begotten Son into the world, already complete with wisdom?
ground wrote:"two springs" stands for the two products of this source being mentioned in the context of this thread. Actually there are more than two springs since there are more religions in this world of humans.
What evidence is there for two sources from two searches? Is our own personal search another spring? Are there as many springs as there are meditators? Or is there one spring revealed by Samyaksambuddha from which all others drink?

:shrug:

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ground
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Post by ground » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:48 am

Zakattack wrote:
ground wrote:"the same subterrestrial water reservoir" stands for the source of human creativity in the context of humans dealing with their dilemma
Does the literature about Jesus include a search for enlightenment to solve suffering? Or did Father God send his Only Begotten Son into the world, already complete with wisdom?
ground wrote:"two springs" stands for the two products of this source being mentioned in the context of this thread. Actually there are more than two springs since there are more religions in this world of humans.
What evidence is there for two sources from two searches? Is our own personal search another spring? Are there as many springs as there are meditators? Or is there one spring revealed by Samyaksambuddha from which all others drink?

:shrug:
Sorry but I think you do not understand my message. Never mind. Don't bother yourself. It is not important. :sage:

Zakattack
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Post by Zakattack » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:02 am

ground wrote:Sorry but I think you do not understand my message. Never mind. Don't bother yourself. It is not important. :sage:
In the Bible, it is written:
John 8:28
So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

John 12:49
For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.

John 15:15
Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
Was Samyaksambuddha taught by 'the Father'? Is 'the Father' the same spring that has been posted; the same subterrestrial water reservoir?

Or was Samyaksambuddha without teacher? Or was 'The Father' Samyaksambuddha's teacher?

:shrug:
Last edited by Zakattack on Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ground
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Post by ground » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:11 am

Maybe you are trying to introduce another spring? If so go ahead. Human creativity must not be blocked. :sage:

Zakattack
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Post by Zakattack » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:16 am

ground wrote:Maybe you are trying to introduce another spring? If so go ahead. Human creativity must not be blocked. :sage:
Mentality, what did Jesus teach (practically) different from Samyaksambuddha? Love thy enemy? Forgive, not judge? Be perfect in love? Hate leads to the fire of hell? Is there evidence of any other teacher teaching these teachings in a total way before Samyaksambuddha?

Transcendentally, Samyaksambuddha learned from the Dharma (Natural Reality). Jesus was taught by 'The Father'. Is the suffering, impermanence & emptiness of natural reality 'The Father'?

:shrug:
ground wrote:Maybe you are trying to introduce another spring? If so go ahead. Human creativity must not be blocked. :sage:
Is 'creativity' called sankhara or papanca in Buddhism? Is the 'uncreated' called Nirvana or visankhara/asankhata?

:shrug:

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ground
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Post by ground » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:37 am

Zakattack wrote:
ground wrote:Maybe you are trying to introduce another spring? If so go ahead. Human creativity must not be blocked. :sage:
Mentality, what did Jesus teach (practically) different from Samyaksambuddha?
See from my perspective "Jesus" and "Samyaksambuddha" are ideas, i.e. products of human creativity in the first place. Now one may either believe that these ideas stand for more than just themselves (i.e. have a basis that is "more" than mere ideas) or that they are just mere ideas or be agnostic ("I do not know"). Your questions are asked from the perspective of religious belief (i.e. that "Jesus" and "Samyaksambuddha" are more than just mere ideas). That is fine and I can accept your perspective but for an answer I have to refer you to yourself, to appeal to your creativity. :sage:

Zakattack
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Post by Zakattack » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:51 pm

ground wrote:See from my perspective "Jesus" and "Samyaksambuddha" are ideas, i.e. products of human creativity in the first place.
Dalai Lama taught about when Samyaksambuddha said: "What is there to see in this vile body? He who sees Dhamma sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma". Is Dhamma really an idea? Is decaying & rotting impermanence [of the vile body] an idea? The idea "my perspective" sounds like an idea. Is ultimate reality an idea? If not, how can Samyaksambuddha be an idea when Samyaksambuddha is the same as Dhamma? Is anatta an idea? Is Jesus loves me an idea? Which of these are ideas (papanca) & which are not ideas (abhiññāya)?

:shrug:

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ground
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Post by ground » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:57 am

Zakattack wrote:Is Dhamma really an idea? Is decaying & rotting impermanence [of the vile body] an idea? ... Is ultimate reality an idea? If not, how can Samyaksambuddha be an idea when Samyaksambuddha is the same as Dhamma? Is anatta an idea? Is Jesus loves me an idea? Which of these are ideas (papanca) & which are not ideas (abhiññāya)
What other than ideas express themselves by means of these words? Investigate whether there are more than mere ideas that express themselves by means of these words.
Zakattack wrote: The idea "my perspective" sounds like an idea. ?
It surely is. And it is merely an idea. But how to address by means of words the arisen idea that there are two spheres commonly called "you" and "me" and that the sphere expressing itself is not perceived as "you"? :sage:

Zakattack
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Re: Did Christianity "borrow" from Buddhism?

Post by Zakattack » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:20 pm

ground wrote:
Zakattack wrote:The idea "my perspective" sounds like an idea ?
It surely is. And it is merely an idea. But how to address by means of words the arisen idea that there are two spheres commonly called "you" and "me" and that the sphere expressing itself is not perceived as "you"? :sage:
We both agree "you" is an idea & "me" is an "idea". Yet we are both not in agreement that impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, not-self & Nibbana are not ideas. When water evaporates, is that impermanence an idea? That $1 billion can never bring perfect happiness, that $1 billion is unsatisfactory, is not an idea. There is not one human or animal mind that can derive perfect happiness (Nibbana) from $1 billion. That things are not-self, i.e., cannot be ultimately owned, possessed, kept, maintained (due to their impermanence) is not an idea. To me, there is an obvious difference between fleeting mind-made ideas, on one hand, and unchanging natural realities, on the other hand.

Thus it was said: "He who sees Dhamma sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma". This saying is evidence that Dhamma is not an idea, therefore Samyaksambuddha is not an idea because Samyaksambuddha is the embodiment of Dhamma (which includes Nibbana).

But Jesus, is said to impart love & forgiveness, is said to be 'Eternal'. Is love & forgiveness an (impermanent) idea or mental phenomena? Is Jesus being 'eternal' an unchanging reality or merely a fleeting mind-made idea?

These are the issues I believe are core to this matter and which support the case that Samyaksambuddha is not a mere papanca idea.

:sage:

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