A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Modus.Ponens
Posts: 3853
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Gallifrey

Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Ñāṇa wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:Of particular interest is point 8, about the emotions the arahat can feel. I don't think anyone who has studied (theravada) buddhism for more than one year, can say that an arahat literaly feels anger. What I think Ingram is saying is that the unpleasant sensations corresponding to anger can be felt, although they do not perturb the mind.
He explicitly mentioned feeling the emotions of lust, hatred, etc., which are defilements (kilesa), not sensations (vedanā). Lust and hatred are root defilements (mūlakilesā) and unskillful roots (akusalamūla). Such unskillful mental qualities impede the noble path, and they are destroyed by the path attainments. So for an arahant, no matter what sensations (vedanā) occur, they don't give rise to defilements (kilesa). To assert otherwise would mean that an arahant is prone to further saṃsāric becoming and is therefore not liberated. A fettered "arahant" is not an arahant at all.
Modus.Ponens wrote:Do you agree with the conclusion I arrived so far that the arahat can experience unpleasant sensations resulting from mind contact?
Ven. Bodhi's endnote in MLDB is relevant here:
  • Since the arahant has eradicated all the defilements along with their underlying tendencies, in this passage the three terms -- the agreeable, etc. -- must be understood simply as the feelings that arise through contact with sense objects, and not as the subtle traces of liking, aversion, and indifference relevant to the preceding passage.
Ok. I assume that he is not as dumb as a rock, so it doesn't make sense to me to interpret his words in that way. Anyway, if that is his intended meaning, I agree with everything you said. Thanks.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Nyana »

Modus.Ponens wrote:Ok. I assume that he is not as dumb as a rock, so it doesn't make sense to me to interpret his words in that way.
I don't think he's dumb either. I think he has quite intentionally realigned the criteria for arahantship to conform with his own claim of being an arahant. IMO this is ill-conceived, but that doesn't mean he's dumb.
User avatar
marc108
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:10 pm

Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by marc108 »

tiltbillings wrote:In rejecting the Buddha's teaching, it ceases to be following the Buddha. He certainly is free to do that, but there is no point in calling it the teachings of the Buddha. It is the teachings of Ingram.
:goodpost:

/thread
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
User avatar
badscooter
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:07 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by badscooter »

marc108 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:In rejecting the Buddha's teaching, it ceases to be following the Buddha. He certainly is free to do that, but there is no point in calling it the teachings of the Buddha. It is the teachings of Ingram.
:goodpost:

/thread
agreed

dont say your an arhat and then rename the definition of what an arhat is because it doesn't fit you... We all can do that!!! lol

Apparently under Ingram I'm an arhat.... I also think TIlt, and Manas and Daverupa and all else on this forum are arhats...
Congratulations to everybody... lol :toast: :woohoo: :rofl:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
User avatar
Nyorai
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:44 am

Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Nyorai »

In the paradise stated in Amitabha Infinite life sutra, there is no such basis of hardcore elements. Everyone is mutually supportive and loving kindnessly :candle:
ImageTo become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana.
If you light a lamp for somebody, it will also brighten your path. He who experiences the unity of life sees his own Self in all beings, and all beings in his own Self.Image
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by binocular »

taintless wrote:I created this thread out of a feeling anger, so perhaps my motivation is not entirely pure in regards to criticizing these yogis. There are still some emotional burns left in my psyche. If this at all discredits what I'm saying, please consider the motivation as to why I'm making these criticisms, as it may render them baseless. I've been labelled as a troll over at the DhO and banned, you should take this into account when reading what I'm writing. There are quite a few emotions regarding this issue, and I find it sensitive, at least for me.
In my experience and insight, there are only two courses of action for dealing with someone who makes a point of claiming to be "spiritually advanced" or "enlightened" and the like.

Either
A. subject oneself to the supposedly advanced person, totally,
or
B. avoid them like the plague.

There is no middle way with such people, no talking to them, not in person, nor in one's own mind (ie. in trying to reason out their propositions).
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by binocular »

tiltbillings wrote:In rejecting the Buddha's teaching, it ceases to be following the Buddha. He certainly is free to do that, but there is no point in calling it the teachings of the Buddha. It is the teachings of Ingram.
I wonder how come some people do that. They have their own ideas about what the Buddha taught, and those ideas very much go against what is in the Buddhist suttas. And yet they insist on calling themselves "Buddhists," and that they "know exactly what the Buddha meant."

I don't get what's the catch in this. If they're so sure they're enlightened, why not profess their own way, with their name on it? Why do they want to be associated to an ancient tradition, even if just by name?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
User avatar
manas
Posts: 2678
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by manas »

binocular wrote: In my experience and insight, there are only two courses of action for dealing with someone who makes a point of claiming to be "spiritually advanced" or "enlightened" and the like.

Either
A. subject oneself to the supposedly advanced person, totally,
or
B. avoid them like the plague.

There is no middle way with such people, no talking to them, not in person, nor in one's own mind (ie. in trying to reason out their propositions).
Hi binocular,

in the case of the Buddha's claim to full enlightenment, well he had quite a few extraordinary powers with which to back up his claim, as well as many individuals trying out his new system and finding that it actually worked, and did what it was claimed to do. But in my readings of the suttas, I find that the Buddha's claims are just 'matter of fact' statements of the truth; he has no need to proclaim it for the sake of getting known. In fact he would have been quite happy living out his days in solitude, and his teaching mission was motivated by compassion for beings, rather than any desire for name and fame.

What I've noticed about disciples of the Buddha, is that the ones I've heard or encountered who have actually made spiritual progress, have a humble attitude. They don't feel the need to proclaim their achievements. From my point of view, the Buddha uncovered the truth and revealed it to us as a gift of dhamma. If we then accept that gift and end up realized, what exactly do we have to proclaim, except the greatness of the Buddha, and the Dhamma-Vinaya? Why would we go about claiming "I am..." or "I have attained..." about anything at all?

So I think that in the case of someone going about proclaiming personal enlightenment (unless they are a sammasambuddha and can back up that claim fully) - I lean more to your 'avoid them like the plague' option :)

kind regards
manas :anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
User avatar
marc108
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:10 pm

Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by marc108 »

manas wrote: If we then accept that gift and end up realized, what exactly do we have to proclaim, except the greatness of the Buddha, and the Dhamma-Vinaya?
Sadhu to that!
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
Post Reply