A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SamKR
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by SamKR »

tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote: I still haven't closed the door on Ingram being an arahat, because I think what he is trying to say is easily interpretable as something that is not what he is trying to say.
Why do you want this idiot who craps on the Buddha's teachings to be an arahant?
Why would you want to call someone you probably dont know -- who seems to have experience and knowledge of teachings -- an idiot? He may not be an arahant according to suttas but still anyone is free to understand the buddha's teachings as he/she wishes.
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tiltbillings
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by tiltbillings »

SamKR wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote: I still haven't closed the door on Ingram being an arahat, because I think what he is trying to say is easily interpretable as something that is not what he is trying to say.
Why do you want this idiot who craps on the Buddha's teachings to be an arahant?
Why would you want to call someone you dont know -- who seems to have experience and knowledge of teachings -- an idiot? He may not be an arahant according to suttas but still anyone is free to understand the buddha's teachings as he/she wishes.
The list in question is a crap on -- a pointed rejection of -- the Buddha's teachings about what an arahant is by someone who self-proclaims being an arahant. Hard to to take this guy seriously. In rejecting the Buddha's teaching, it ceases to be following the Buddha. He certainly is free to do that, but there is no point in calling it the teachings of the Buddha. It is the teachings of Ingram.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
SamKR
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by SamKR »

tiltbillings wrote:
SamKR wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:but there is no point in calling it the teachings of the Buddha. It is the teachings of Ingram.
Yes, You may be right. But still I am not sure about the demarcation line when a teaching ceases to become the Buddha's teachings. The demarcation is fuzzy.
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tiltbillings
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by tiltbillings »

SamKR wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:but there is no point in calling it the teachings of the Buddha. It is the teachings of Ingram.
Yes, You may be right. But still I am not sure about the demarcation line when a teaching ceases to become the Buddha's teachings. The demarcation is fuzzy.
When one redefines so radically the goal of the practice, that is probably a good place to consider that what is being advocated is not what the Buddha taught.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Modus.Ponens »

daverupa wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:Is this step in my train of thought acceptable?
Sn 4.11 wrote:"The pleasant and the unpleasant have their source in sense-impression. When this sense-impression is absent, these states are not present."
SN 36.10 wrote:"Dependent on a sense-impression that is liable to be felt as painful, there arises a painful feeling. When that very sense-impression liable to be felt as painful has ceased, then the sensation born from it — namely the painful feeling that arose dependent on that sense-impression — also ceases and is stilled.
I think the stone splinter episode shows that unpleasant sense-impressions exist. A stone splinter wound, for example, is liable to be felt as pain even in the case of the Buddha, neh?

But even though the body was afflicted, the Buddha's mind was not. I think the problem in this thread is that Ingram describes a category of "unpleasant mental feeling" (#8 in the list) as being present for arahants in the same way as the physical can be, but the suttas clearly describe the utter absence of such mentalities for arahants.
Thank you for the suttas. So it's safe to assume that an arahat has pleasant and unpleasant sensations based on sense contact, with the exception of the mind, right?

Now comes the crucial part, which you already mentioned. There are pleasant sensations arising from mind contact for the arahat, such as rapture. Are there unpleasant sensations resulting from mind contact? The standard answer is no. But could it be that there are unpleasant sensations born of mind contact, but the arahat is unperturbed by these unpleasant sensations as well? I'm not a materialist, but from a biological point of view, if an arahat remembers of his mother's death and the sorrow he felt at the time (assuming that he wasn't an arya by then), it makes sense that he will remember the unpleasant sensations that he felt at the time and thus, from, mind contact, a part of the same unpleasant sensations arise in him. Is this incorrect?
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Modus.Ponens »

tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote: I still haven't closed the door on Ingram being an arahat, because I think what he is trying to say is easily interpretable as something that is not what he is trying to say.
Why do you want this idiot who craps on the Buddha's teachings to be an arahant?
Maybe because I'm naive. But I won't eliminate the option as long as there is an interpretation of what he says that arahats are that makes sense. The list you quoted is, in the best case scenario, a very unskillful way to express his thoughts. However, not all arahats are skillful at teaching, so this can be the case. It's an interesting thing to discuss, wether that list is interpretable as correct dhamma or not. At first sight, it obviously isn't. But maybe there's something to it, point 8 being the main one. Even if there isn't, I'm interested in exploring the nature and limitations of the arahat along the lines of that list (with the exception of the illogical points, such as: arahats have to ordain within 7 days or they die or they can't have a job).
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Alex123
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Alex123 »

Modus.Ponens wrote: Now comes the crucial part, which you already mentioned. There are pleasant sensations arising from mind contact for the arahat, such as rapture. Are there unpleasant sensations resulting from mind contact? The standard answer is no. But could it be that there are unpleasant sensations born of mind contact, but the arahat is unperturbed by these unpleasant sensations as well? I'm not a materialist, but from a biological point of view, if an arahat remembers of his mother's death and the sorrow he felt at the time (assuming that he wasn't an arya by then), it makes sense that he will remember the unpleasant sensations that he felt at the time and thus, from, mind contact, a part of the same unpleasant sensations arise in him. Is this incorrect?
An interesting continuation: What happens if an Arahant remembers lustful events, etc. Can Arahant still feel lust, but it merely does NOT obsess his mind and he doesn't identify with it as "mine"?

If lust depends on certain hormones such as testosterone, etc, do Arhats still have these hormones?

Does Arahant have clinging aggregates?
Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?"
"An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. SN22.122
That message is identical with instruction from virtuous monk to non-returner.
Venerable Sariputta, an Arahant wrote: Whichever of these seven factors of enlightenment I want to dwell in during the morning, I dwell in that factor of enlightenment during the morning. Whichever I want to dwell in during the middle of the day, I dwell in that factor of enlightenment during the middle of the day. Whichever I want to dwell in during the evening, I dwell in that factor of enlightenment during the evening. SN46.4
If Arahant can dwell in mindfulness as factor of enlightment, does it mean that whenever He doesn't dwell in it - he has no mindfulness?


"And how is one a noble one with developed faculties? There is the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is agreeable (manāpaṃ), what is disagreeable (amanāpaṃ), what is agreeable & disagreeable (manāpāmanāpaṃ). If he wants, he remains percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not loathsome. If he wants, he remains percipient of unloathsomeness in the presence of what is loathsome (paṭikkula). If he wants, he remains percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not loathsome & what is. If he wants, he remains percipient of unloathsomeness in the presence of what is loathsome & what is not. If he wants — in the presence of what is loathsome & what is not — cutting himself off from both, he remains equanimous, alert, & mindful. MN152
So Arhat can experience:
manāpa = pleasing; charming.
amanāpa= detesful.
paṭikkula = loathsome;


Buddha has also talked to Mara. There are 5 interpretations of Mara and I believe only two fit the case:
a) Māra as actual being, (with horns and pig tail? :pig: ) and lifespan of 9.216 billion years :rolleye: .
or
b)Kilesa-Māra. Mara as personification of defilements. But how could "defilements" speak to Buddha and attempt to tempt Him?
Last edited by Alex123 on Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
daverupa
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by daverupa »

Modus.Ponens wrote:if an arahat remembers of his mother's death and the sorrow he felt at the time (assuming that he wasn't an arya by then), it makes sense that he will remember the unpleasant sensations that he felt at the time and thus, from, mind contact, a part of the same unpleasant sensations arise in him. Is this incorrect?
It seems to be incorrect. Here is a passage which directly bears on your hypothetical:
somewhere in the therigatha they wrote:Pulling out
completely out —
the arrow so hard to see,
embedded in my heart,
he expelled from me
— overcome with grief —
the grief
over my daughter.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Modus.Ponens »

daverupa wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:if an arahat remembers of his mother's death and the sorrow he felt at the time (assuming that he wasn't an arya by then), it makes sense that he will remember the unpleasant sensations that he felt at the time and thus, from, mind contact, a part of the same unpleasant sensations arise in him. Is this incorrect?
It seems to be incorrect. Here is a passage which directly bears on your hypothetical:
somewhere in the therigatha it wrote:Pulling out
completely out —
the arrow so hard to see,
embedded in my heart,
he expelled from me
— overcome with grief —
the grief
over my daughter.

That is not conclusive. I don't afirm that the arahat experiences grief. It wouldn't make sense to be a buddhist and believe it to be true. What I'm asking is if, when remembering the grief itself, the arahat experiences an unpleasant sensation, towards which he remains unperturbed. I think the key here is memory. Is it possible to remember a feeling without any sensation at all? When you remember a feeling, you experience that feeling. In the case of the arahat, what seems more likely to me is that some (unpleasant) sensation is felt. Like Dipa Ma said about anger,

Do you experience anger at all? As soon as it comes, at the very start, I’m aware of it. It doesn’t get any nourishment.

What do you do when you begin to feel irritation or anger? Anger is a fire, but I don’t feel any heat. It comes and dies right out.


I only now read the link you quoted, Alex. In it one has the answer to this question, I think, unless the pali experts have something contrary to say. The passage is the following and it is linked in Alex's post:

When cognizing an idea with the intellect, there arises in him what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. (...) This is how one is a noble one with developed faculties
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Nyana »

Modus.Ponens wrote:Nana, I also ask for your help.
I think Ingram's notion of an "arahant" is not an arahant at all. There's no actual liberation there -- just more wandering on through saṃsāra. Of course, there are plenty of misguided gurus in this world who claim to be enlightened, and no shortage of people who will follow them.
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by manas »

Alex123 wrote: Does Arahant have clinging aggregates?
Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?"
"An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. SN22.122
Hi Alex, the next bit is very instructive as to why the arahant should do this:
Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things — when developed & pursued — lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness."
By way of contrast, when the reason for why one ought to contemplate the clinging-aggregates was given for a virtuous monk, a stream-enterer, a once-returner and a non-returner, every time it was for the sake of progressing to the next level of realisation. But for the arahant (it seems to me, to be) not so much a matter of 'why' as 'why not?' :smile:

That's my take on it. If I've misrepresented anything - someone please correct me!

metta :anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Ñāṇa wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:Nana, I also ask for your help.
I think Ingram's notion of an "arahant" is not an arahant at all. There's no actual liberation there -- just more wandering on through saṃsāra. Of course, there are plenty of misguided gurus in this world who claim to be enlightened, and no shortage of people who will follow them.
Ok. Apart from the morality related points of the list, I think it's possible to argue efectively in favor of all the others, as long as one assumes that Ingram is not dumb as a rock nor that he is a charlatan. Of particular interest is point 8, about the emotions the arahat can feel. I don't think anyone who has studied (theravada) buddhism for more than one year, can say that an arahat literaly feels anger. What I think Ingram is saying is that the unpleasant sensations corresponding to anger can be felt, although they do not perturb the mind. But nevermind Ingram. This is not as much about him as it is about the movement in general and the nature of arahatship in particular.

Do you agree with the conclusion I arrived so far that the arahat can experience unpleasant sensations resulting from mind contact? Your pali expertise would be helpful to reveal if there is a mistranslation of the last thing I quoted in the previous post.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Alex123
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Alex123 »

Hello Manas, all,

Thank you for your reply. :namaste:
manas wrote: Hi Alex, the next bit is very instructive as to why the arahant should do this:
Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things — when developed & pursued — lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness."
I wonder these two things:
1) Why is Arahant supposed to reflect on his/her clinging aggregates? Didn't s/he eradicated all clinging?
2) If something can lead to "mindfulness & alertness" doesn't this imply that Arahant can be without mindfulness & alertness?
3) Same about 7 factors of Awakening.
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Nyana »

Modus.Ponens wrote:Of particular interest is point 8, about the emotions the arahat can feel. I don't think anyone who has studied (theravada) buddhism for more than one year, can say that an arahat literaly feels anger. What I think Ingram is saying is that the unpleasant sensations corresponding to anger can be felt, although they do not perturb the mind.
He explicitly mentioned feeling the emotions of lust, hatred, etc., which are defilements (kilesa), not sensations (vedanā). Lust and hatred are root defilements (mūlakilesā) and unskillful roots (akusalamūla). Such unskillful mental qualities impede the noble path, and they are destroyed by the path attainments. So for an arahant, no matter what sensations (vedanā) occur, they don't give rise to defilements (kilesa). To assert otherwise would mean that an arahant is prone to further saṃsāric becoming and is therefore not liberated. A fettered "arahant" is not an arahant at all.
Modus.Ponens wrote:Do you agree with the conclusion I arrived so far that the arahat can experience unpleasant sensations resulting from mind contact?
Ven. Bodhi's endnote in MLDB is relevant here:
  • Since the arahant has eradicated all the defilements along with their underlying tendencies, in this passage the three terms -- the agreeable, etc. -- must be understood simply as the feelings that arise through contact with sense objects, and not as the subtle traces of liking, aversion, and indifference relevant to the preceding passage.
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by daverupa »

:goodpost:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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