A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
daverupa
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by daverupa »

Searching it in on the interwebs renders a few recurrent names.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Modus.Ponens »

taintless wrote:I recently took a foray into what would be called "hardcore dharma", it's an interesting movement that IMO has produced results.

However the following post that I make is not in support, neither is it against, neither is it a segregating post, but merely a critique of the movement.

I make the following points:

[*]The hardcore dharma movement places too much emphasis on experience as a validator, as opposed to faith and gradual practice.
[*]The hardcore dharma movement renders the path "goal-less" and useless.
[*]The hardcore dharma movement establishes bizarre and incorrect criterion for Awakening.
[*]The hardcore dharma movement demoralizes and secularizes the path.
[*]The adherents of the hardcore dharma movement are method and technique obsessed.

Point No. 1)

The hardcore dharma movement places too much value on bizarre meditative experiences, the implicit assumption in all hardcore dharma diagonistics in that all experiences inherently "mean" something, and that most experiences imply some sort of "attainment". For example, if someone were to post:

"Hey I just saw a bright light during meditation, what does it mean?"

The classical hardcore dharma response would be: it means you've crossed the A&P (a term referring to partial enlightenment in the movement). Furthermore the movement gives too much credence to weird experiences which simply have no place in this dhamma-vinaya, e.g:

Hallucinations, ecstasies, kundalini phenomena, suicidal depression, hearing voices, raptures, strange bodily phenomena, orgasmic and sexual feelings. They view these experiences as positive indicators of progress.

Point No. 2)

The hardcore dharma movement believes the path does not truly eliminate suffering at it's classic "final" attainment, AKA MCTB Fourth Path. This was originally considered to be the equivalent of the Buddha's Arahatship, though they later abandoned this belief. Nevertheless, for the adherents that believe that the path does not truly eliminate all suffering, then it would be proper to point out that their endeavors have no goal or purpose.

This is simply because the Buddha's entire purpose of his teaching was to eliminate suffering. Whereas they claim that "enlightenment" does no such thing.

Hence two disparate situations.

Point No. 3)

The hardcore dharma movement place too much value on the Commentaries and the Visuddhimagga. They have created and synthesized a brand new teaching of nanas and jhanas, that actually is found nowhere in the Canon and ACTUALLY nowhere found in the Commentaries or Visuddhimagga either.

The primary function of the nanas of the Comy and the Visuddhimagga were attainments of SPIRITUAL INSIGHT, not attainments of BIZARRE EXPERIENCE.

But they fail to realize this because they have not studied the source material of this doctrine.

Point No. 4)

The hardcore dharma movement eliminates the moral component of the path and favors discursive thought and labeling. This entirely eliminates the need to eliminate greed, hatred and delusion as well as unskillful actions.

This renders the path easier, and more interesting for people who do not wish to improve as individuals.

Point No. 5)

The hardcore dharma movement is method obsessed. They are obsessed with technique and prefer technique and practice over all sensible evaluation. Their primary obsession is the noting technique of U Narada.

The Buddha however, never gave step by step instructions for anything, because it was supposed to be our common sense and conscience that guided us to practice in this path. However it is ironic that instead of evaluating themselves inwardly, on where they would need to change, they instead decided to turn to techniques.

---

Note:

I do NOT condemn, or wish to separate "more dhamma oriented" Buddhists from "hardcore" Buddhists. As far as I'm concerned this would be incredibly unskillful, and the fact of the matter is, is that we're all adherents of this teaching and all human beings.

Furthermore I actually have tremendous respect for "hardcore" Buddhists and actually do believe them to be attaining the fruits of the teaching.

This is just me venting.

Go figure.

;-)
1 is not a bad thing.

2 and 3 might be based on an incorrect understandind of the arahat's mind, as the current direction of the discussion is ilustrating.

4 I don't have an opinion based on the dharma overground community.

5 Almost everybody is technique obsessed.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
taintless
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by taintless »

Well this is really interesting, as far as I see there are two issues:

1) The possibility that we and/or I have misunderstood what the state of an Arahat is.

AND

2) Whether or not these criticisms can really be levied against the Hardcore Dharma movement adherents.

Number 2 is possible for me because I spent a large amount of time following the community at the Dharma Overground, and I noticed that kind of behavior that I mention. Number 1 however means something different, if it is truly the case that we and/or I are misinterpreting what it means to be an Arahat, then the rest of the criticisms may be pointless. Not invalid but pointless, merely because they really are making progress along the path.
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Nyana »

Alex123 wrote:It does sounds like Buddha was angry at Devadatta.
Do you not think it's possible to rebuke, reprove, reprimand, censure, criticize, or admonish someone without being angry?
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Maitri »

Point No. 4)

The hardcore dharma movement eliminates the moral component of the path and favors discursive thought and labeling. This entirely eliminates the need to eliminate greed, hatred and delusion as well as unskillful actions.

This renders the path easier, and more interesting for people who do not wish to improve as individuals.
While I agree with you on this point, don't you think that this the case with most of Western Secular Buddhism? There is often little to no discussion of following sila in relation to ending suffering; meditation is touted as the only path for this. It seems that adjustment of one's moral behavior is rarely mentioned for fear of offending people.
"Upon a heap of rubbish in the road-side ditch blooms a lotus, fragrant and pleasing.
Even so, on the rubbish heap of blinded mortals the disciple of the Supremely Enlightened One shines resplendent in wisdom." Dhammapada: Pupphavagga

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Ben
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Ben »

Maitri wrote: While I agree with you on this point, don't you think that this the case with most of Western Secular Buddhism?
No, not in my experience. Most reputable western teachers that I am familiar with make a big deal about the importance of sila.
kind regards,

Ben
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Spiny Norman
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Spiny Norman »

Alex123 wrote:
porpoise wrote:
Alex123 wrote:So apparently even the Buddha could experience discomfort and unease.
And yet some suttas talk about the "here and now" cessation of suffering - so how does one reconcile this apparent contradiction? Is it about being "disjoined" from these feelings?
First of all, not all dukkha ceases. Even the Buddha felt "severe illness, and sharp and deadly pains." DN16. Dukkha of aging, illness, death, change - still remains.
So how do you explain the suttas which describe here and now cessation of suffering? Is it about different ways of interpreting dukkha?

Here's an example from MN9, this section is repeated throughout the sutta:
"....having entirely abandoned passion-obsession, having abolished aversion-obsession, having uprooted the view-&-conceit obsession 'I am'; having abandoned ignorance & given rise to clear knowing — he has put an end to suffering & stress right in the here-&-now, it is to this extent, too, that a disciple of the noble ones is a person of right view, one whose view is made straight, who is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma, and who has arrived at this true Dhamma."
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Spiny Norman »

taintless wrote:Well this is really interesting, as far as I see there are two issues:

1) The possibility that we and/or I have misunderstood what the state of an Arahat is.
And the possibility that we have misunderstood what dukkha is?
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taintless
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by taintless »

porpoise wrote:
taintless wrote:Well this is really interesting, as far as I see there are two issues:

1) The possibility that we and/or I have misunderstood what the state of an Arahat is.
And the possibility that we have misunderstood what dukkha is?
That is also probable. IMO.
Maitri
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Maitri »

Ben wrote:
Maitri wrote: While I agree with you on this point, don't you think that this the case with most of Western Secular Buddhism?
No, not in my experience. Most reputable western teachers that I am familiar with make a big deal about the importance of sila.
kind regards,

Ben

No doubt that there are many Western teachers who are well versed in teaching morality. My comment was directed on the secularization of the Dhamma- reducing it all to meditation. I find that secular Buddhist movements seems to flow across all the traditions as well- not only in Theravada but in Mahayana as well. Several Zen traditions seem to suffer from this as well.
"Upon a heap of rubbish in the road-side ditch blooms a lotus, fragrant and pleasing.
Even so, on the rubbish heap of blinded mortals the disciple of the Supremely Enlightened One shines resplendent in wisdom." Dhammapada: Pupphavagga

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/
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Alex123
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Alex123 »

Ñāṇa wrote:
Alex123 wrote:It does sounds like Buddha was angry at Devadatta.
Do you not think it's possible to rebuke, reprove, reprimand, censure, criticize, or admonish someone without being angry?
It seems to me that there has to be certain degree of disliking of a wrong behavior in order to say something like he did to Devadatta.
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Alex123
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Alex123 »

porpoise wrote:So how do you explain the suttas which describe here and now cessation of suffering? Is it about different ways of interpreting dukkha?
Did it say all dukkha?

porpoise wrote: Here's an example from MN9, this section is repeated throughout the sutta:
"....having entirely abandoned passion-obsession, having abolished aversion-obsession, having uprooted the view-&-conceit obsession 'I am'; having abandoned ignorance & given rise to clear knowing — he has put an end to suffering & stress right in the here-&-now, it is to this extent, too, that a disciple of the noble ones is a person of right view, one whose view is made straight, who is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma, and who has arrived at this true Dhamma."
It doesn't have to be all dukkha. Furthermore it may refer to stopping now the possibility of future rebirths for Arahant or 8th and further births for stream enterer so all dukkha of those births will never occur.
daverupa
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by daverupa »

Perhaps the Devadatta story includes non-historical narrative elements, inappropriate for doctrinal derivations about arahants.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Mr Man
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by Mr Man »

in my opinion hardcore and dhamma do not mix.
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kirk5a
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Re: A Critique of the Hardcore Dharma Movement.

Post by kirk5a »

porpoise wrote: So how do you explain the suttas which describe here and now cessation of suffering? Is it about different ways of interpreting dukkha?

Here's an example from MN9, this section is repeated throughout the sutta:
"....having entirely abandoned passion-obsession, having abolished aversion-obsession, having uprooted the view-&-conceit obsession 'I am'; having abandoned ignorance & given rise to clear knowing — he has put an end to suffering & stress right in the here-&-now, it is to this extent, too, that a disciple of the noble ones is a person of right view, one whose view is made straight, who is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma, and who has arrived at this true Dhamma."
Since all that is felt is included within dukkha, clearly the dukkha referred to there which has been ended is mental dukkha, the second arrow. Parinibbana is the end of the first arrow.
"Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left and the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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