global warming

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Buckwheat
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Re: global warming

Post by Buckwheat »

poto wrote:So much urgency... must act right now or else doom! For that to be an effective argument you would have to conclusively show that there is a clear problem now. As has been stated, temperatures have been flat for more than a decade. There is not a problem at present and there may not be a problem for a very long time, so this false urgency isn't helping matters.
There is a clear problem now: http://www.skepticalscience.com/
poto wrote: There are real problems of deforestation, pollution of the oceans with metals and plastics, etc. There are also many people suffering, in hospice, homeless shelters, etc. that could use help right now. Those are things that do not involve speculation and are IMHO worthy of one's time and effort.

I do spend time volunteering with various charities. I don't sit around doing nothing, waiting for miracles to solve everything as you have implied. I just feel that talking about charity work would be too close to bragging, so I usually don't say anything. Above all I have been trying to put my practice first and foremost in my life. I seem to have a hard time communicating that.
Great!! :anjali: Sorry to force you to brag ;) However, Moore's Law applies to the chip industry, who are driven by profit motive to develop the newest fastest technology now, before the next company beats them out. That's a lot different than saying we should worry about AGW later.
poto wrote:
Buckwheat wrote: That approach costs much, much more in the long run.
Except that I posted information that showed mitigation later would cost less. It is also a technological/economic/military inevitability that we humans will build climate control technology and deploy it globally, which will render all of this debate over climate moot. I greatly look forward to that day.
What I'm saying is that one article by a technology journalist, whose goal was to draw attention to some radical ideas, is not anything like a fair analysis that trumps the time honored adage: an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If you have some hard evidence, I would love to see it.

I am not against adaptation methods (per say, each method has it's own pros / cons, as does every energy generation method). From my understanding, we will need mitigation and adaptation. These are not mutually exclusive. We also need to protect the environment. We also need to feed, clothe, and educate the poor. The reasons are twofold: 1) basic humanity, 2) a healthy, educated population is more adaptable to changing conditions.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: global warming

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Global warming is caused by too much hot air.
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Alex123
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Re: global warming

Post by Alex123 »

Hello Buckwheat,

As for Ordovichian quote, you site tells it all with first sentence:
"During the Ordovician, solar output was much lower than current levels."
http://www.skepticalscience.com/CO2-was ... vician.htm
BINGO! It is solar output that plays a big role, even bigger role than merely CO2. So your site rejected the simplistic idea that it is only CO2 that drives the temperature.

Your quote:
While CO2 is essential for plant growth, all agriculture depends also on steady water supplies, and climate change is likely to disrupt those supplies through floods and droughts.
Higher temperature can mean more water is evaporated from oceans and thus more rainfall. So it is not as black-and-white.

And as for heat waves, etc, - again solar output as your AGW site says is important. Humans can't affect solar output. Even if CO2 levels are high, but solar output is low, the Earth's temperature would still remain low.


What prevents sun from lowering its output soon, thus cancelling out disputed effects of CO2 on warming?
Maybe it is speculation that there is crisis in the future.


I could go on, but I think this is enough for now.
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Kim OHara
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Re: global warming

Post by Kim OHara »

Alex123 wrote:I could go on, but I think this is enough for now.
:thanks:
Kim
Buckwheat
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Location: California USA

Re: global warming

Post by Buckwheat »

Alex123 wrote:Hello Buckwheat,

As for Ordovichian quote, you site tells it all with first sentence:
"During the Ordovician, solar output was much lower than current levels."
http://www.skepticalscience.com/CO2-was ... vician.htm
BINGO! It is solar output that plays a big role, even bigger role than merely CO2.
http://skepticalscience.com/solar-activ ... arming.htm
Science wrote:Over the last 35 years the sun has shown a slight cooling trend. However global temperatures have been increasing. Since the sun and climate are going in opposite directions scientists conclude the sun cannot be the cause of recent global warming.
The only way to blame the sun for the current rise in temperatures is by cherry picking the data. This is done by showing only past periods when sun and climate move together and ignoring the last few decades when the two are moving in opposite direction.
Image

Alex123 wrote:So your site rejected the simplistic idea that it is only CO2 that drives the temperature.
:redherring: Nobody ever made such a claim that CO2 is the only variable to global climate.
Alex123 wrote:Your quote:
While CO2 is essential for plant growth, all agriculture depends also on steady water supplies, and climate change is likely to disrupt those supplies through floods and droughts.
Higher temperature can mean more water is evaporated from oceans and thus more rainfall. So it is not as black-and-white.
During warm periods, such as the Mosozoic Era (Dinosaurs), the climate is characterized as hot and dry with occational torrential downpours that cause flooding. the reason for this is that in order for precipitation to occur, the water must evaporate and then cool in order to condensate into rain. In a very warm climate, the water vapor just stays in the air. Water vapor is another greenhouse gas, so more water in the air equals more heating. It's called a feedback loop. But because there is so much vapor in the air, when it does rain, it is torrential, causing flooding.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesozoic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_cycle
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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Alex123
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Re: global warming

Post by Alex123 »

Buckwheat wrote: Nobody ever made such a claim that CO2 is the only variable to global climate.
We can't control other options such as solar output, or dust between sun & earth, or some other astronomical event (such and such tilt of earth) so it is not our fault in that area. We can't be certain that IF CO2 will go up, the temperature will go up.

I've read a number of article that temperature has stalled. It is not going up, and as you might know - in the 70s there was a fear about global cooling, which is strange to even propose when people claim that there is Global Warming happening.
Image

Also there are plenty of news such as:
Global warming appears to have stalled. Climatologists are puzzled as to why average global temperatures have stopped rising over the last 10 years. Some attribute the trend to a lack of sunspots, while others explain it through ocean currents....

"It cannot be denied that this is one of the hottest issues in the scientific community," says Jochem Marotzke, director of the Max Planck Institute for Meteorology in Hamburg. "We don't really know why this stagnation is taking place at this point."
http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 62092.html
So your temperature graph is not so scary after year 2000. I do hope we don't fall into an Ice Age. That is far bigger problem.
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Kim OHara
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Re: global warming

Post by Kim OHara »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Global warming is caused by too much hot air.
Blame the politicians?
http://hillpost.in/2013/03/21/hot-air-p ... /hp_bureau

:smile:
Kim
knighter
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Re: global warming

Post by knighter »

Hello there

I dont care! sorry if that sounds harsh but my practice tells me to live in the moment and find equanimity, illusions come and go! if i think about our poor beautiful planet burning up with everyone on it its just an illusion, but also if i think of 500 years of peace and happiness its also an illusion, best i try to live in the moment, love my family love this beautiful planet and tolerate those who chose a different path.
If i had to entertained the question though.
i dont believe this planet is doing anything other than changing like the universe law says. And the masses of people who cant stand change are panicking and labelling it to try and make themselves feel better.
best just meditate and be happy, on that note.
Be happy
knighter
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: global warming

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

CBS News last night reported that the migratory bird flyway territories and game bird reserves/ park grounds are in a drought state even thought the Spring thaw is supposed to bring record flooding due to heavy snows this year (2013). Seems peculiar to say the least.

http://www.sfgate.com/science/article/M ... to-2844175
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
Buckwheat
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Location: California USA

Re: global warming

Post by Buckwheat »

Ron-The-Elder wrote:CBS News last night reported that the migratory bird flyway territories and game bird reserves/ park grounds are in a drought state even thought the Spring thaw is supposed to bring record flooding due to heavy snows this year (2013). Seems peculiar to say the least.

http://www.sfgate.com/science/article/M ... to-2844175
I was surprised to hear anything about heavy snowfall in my region, so I read the article carefully. I did not read anything about heavy snowfall. Klamath is a bit north of me, but most of northern California is well below normal snowpack.

http://www.kcra.com/news/local-news/new ... index.html
PHILLIPS, Calif. (KCRA) —The snowpack levels in the Sierra are barely half of what they should be for this time of year, surveyors said Thursday.
This article is almost a month old, and we have had some precipitation since then, but not much.

Edit: I found some data. According to http://www.cnrfc.noaa.gov/monthly_precip.php Klamath Falls is at 54% avg to date (as of March 22, 2013). The areas around it are having at best an average year with 80-110% depending on the location.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
Buckwheat
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Location: California USA

Re: global warming

Post by Buckwheat »

knighter wrote: i dont believe this planet is doing anything other than changing like the universe law says.
What is your basis for this belief?
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
knighter
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Re: global warming

Post by knighter »

Hello there

Well if you look through the history of this planet, its never had a steady climate, its the nature of nature.
Its just the internet is new and humans have never been so connected so news be it true or false travels fast.
I would say the planets climate has always fluctuate its just we've never spoke about it, we've just adapted.
Its best, i think to move on from this subject do as much as you can to look after nature and be happy.
There are lots of people wanting other people to belive in there own illusion, very funny business.
Anyway
Be happy
knighter
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Kim OHara
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Re: global warming

Post by Kim OHara »

knighter wrote:Hello there

Well if you look through the history of this planet, its never had a steady climate, its the nature of nature.
Its just the internet is new and humans have never been so connected so news be it true or false travels fast.
I would say the planets climate has always fluctuate its just we've never spoke about it, we've just adapted.
Its best, i think to move on from this subject do as much as you can to look after nature and be happy.
There are lots of people wanting other people to belive in there own illusion, very funny business.
Anyway
Be happy
knighter
Hi, knighter,
You seem quite vague and maybe confused about reality and illusion ... "the internet is new" (so it exists) but "if i think about our poor beautiful planet burning up with everyone on it its just an illusion". Either they are both illusion, or both real. And a conventionally-real "you" sat at a conventionally-real computer to type your message, and a conventionally-real "me" is sitting in a conventionally-real chair in a conventionally-real city in a conventionally-real Australia ... you get the idea.
In that conventional reality, our actions have consequences and Buddhism teaches that we must accept responsibility for them.
So we should choose carefully - know the facts and act upon them as compassionately as possible.
In this case, the facts are that human activity is changing the climate far faster than it has changed before (apart from when a meteorite wiped out the dinosaurs :tongue: ) and if we don't do something about it, soon, millions of people and billions of other living creatures will suffer because we/they can't adapt fast enough to survive the changes. Please, inform yourself before deciding not to act. Start here, if you like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change.

:namaste:
Kim
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Kim OHara
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Re: global warming

Post by Kim OHara »

Someone claimed a while ago (poto, I think, but I'm not sure) that the best mitigation strategy was to do nothing until technology improved. I disagreed at the time and referred them to the 700-page Stern report among others, but I have just come across a much more concise statement with links to all sorts of further information: http://cleantechnica.com/2012/03/02/cle ... mists-say/

Enjoy!

:namaste:
Kim
Buckwheat
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Re: global warming

Post by Buckwheat »

There used to be a day when we were willing to invest in a bright future.

I did some research on geocraft.com The author is:
Monte Hieb - Mining Engineer
Monte Hieb is the author of several popular web pages skeptical of Anthropogenic Global Warming, serving as a evangelist for the viewpoint (he does not state his qualification in climatology or a related science). He is an employee at the West Virginia Office of Miner’s Health, Safety, and Training.
http://www.takeonit.com/expert/66.aspx
This is an interesting read (IMO): http://globalwarmingwatch.blogspot.com/ ... ime-2.html
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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