Magick and Buddhism

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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convivium
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Re: Here's an interesting one for you...

Post by convivium »

This is why he considered his system to essentially be a from of White Magick and Buddhism to largely be a form of Black Magick--not becuase it's "evil" or "useless" but only as it regards dukkha (source: the three chapters in Magick Without Tears on The Three Schools of Magick).
that's something a black magician would say. look at his life and what he did and how he died.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
danieLion
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Re: Here's an interesting one for you...

Post by danieLion »

convivium wrote:
This is why he considered his system to essentially be a from of White Magick and Buddhism to largely be a form of Black Magick--not becuase it's "evil" or "useless" but only as it regards dukkha (source: the three chapters in Magick Without Tears on The Three Schools of Magick).
that's something a black magician would say. look at his life and what he did and how he died.
That's something someone ignorant of "his life" and "what he did" and "how he died" would say. Besides, what would you know about it? You still haven't cited one source. Hearsay is a poor basis for judging someone. He was not perfect and never claimed to be. Neither are you. Do you want to be remembered by just your mistakes when you die?
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convivium
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Re: Here's an interesting one for you...

Post by convivium »

You still haven't cited one source.
While the O.T.O. included, from its inception, the teaching of sex magick in the highest degrees of the Order, when Crowley became head of the Order, he expanded on these teachings and associated them with different degrees as follows:[8]
VIII°: masturbatory or autosexual magical techniques were taught, referred as the Lesser Work of Sol
IX°: heterosexual magical techniques were taught
XI°: anal intercourse magical techniques were taught.

[8] Crowley, Aleister. Magical Diaries of Aleister Crowley, p. 241

or, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eroto-comatose_lucidity (sources included)
read all the sources passages, in juxtaposition with this, and it won't be useless to understand the issue at hand.
e.g.
Dalai Lama:
if you really are practicing Kalachakra, you need to have no release or loss of semen whatsoever. Moreover, there is probably no division to be made in this respect between practitioners of the generation stage and of the complete stage. To state this clearly is probably better.

Now, as for the actual root downfall of discarding bodhichitta, this is talking about having the mind that wishes liberation through the bliss of orgasmic release ('dzag-bde grol-ba 'dod-kyi sems). As for this bliss of orgasmic release, some non-Buddhist traditions (mu-stegs-pa) assert that offering a homa fire puja of semen in the reality source of a woman pleases Ishvara (dBang-phyug, Shiva) and that through this one can achieve moksha, liberation. But, liberation doesn't happen like that. Therefore, specifically to stop this mistaken practice, the vow was made that if, with a mind wishing for liberation through the bliss of orgasmic release, one ejaculates one's constituent source energy-drops externally (phyi-rol-du khams-phong-ba), it is a root downfall. Usually, however, when one has and ejaculates semen, there is no thought of wishing liberation through the bliss of releasing it. Thus, it is not a root downfall.
still, the guy inspired a lot of good music e.g. led zeppelin and amebix :clap:

edit: i am not in any way advocating tantrism, especially black tantrism (of the sorts i've mentioned in this post before mentioning the dalai lama). having said that, tantric practices must always be carried out under the tutelage of a qualified teacher (guru) and require that one have a highly stable, normal and remarkable sort of character; sexual tantras, at least in buddhist traditions i am familiar, are typically the last stage/tantra and so are exclusive to very advanced practitioners (see, e.g.: six yogas of naropa by tsongkhapa).
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
danieLion
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Re: Here's an interesting one for you...

Post by danieLion »

convivium wrote:
You still haven't cited one source.
While the O.T.O. included, from its inception, the teaching of sex magick in the highest degrees of the Order, when Crowley became head of the Order, he expanded on these teachings and associated them with different degrees as follows:[8]
VIII°: masturbatory or autosexual magical techniques were taught, referred as the Lesser Work of Sol
IX°: heterosexual magical techniques were taught
XI°: anal intercourse magical techniques were taught.

[8] Crowley, Aleister. Magical Diaries of Aleister Crowley, p. 241

or, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eroto-comatose_lucidity (sources included)
Finally something of substance--still, you missed some details. But that is not to the point, which is, that out of the thousands of pages Crowley wrote--and out of the hundreds of practices he endorsed--you single this itsy-bitsy corner out and act as if it's a representative sample of what Magick in its entirety is.

And as for to its relationship to Buddhism, unless you're a monk, none of these things are forbidden. And as for it's relationsip to the OP, it can qualify as something someone tried but gave up, or might try and give up, for whatever reasons they might cite.
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convivium
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Re: Here's an interesting one for you...

Post by convivium »

you single this itsy-bitsy corner out and act as if it's a representative sample of what Magick in its entirety is.
fine, but it's the culmination or "highest degree" of crowley's system, and likewise for the other tantrik systems mentioned (though they stray in mutually exclusive directions).
And as for to its relationship to Buddhism, unless you're a monk, none of these things are forbidden.
i'm not sure how e.g. that eroto comotose thing could be in line with the 3rd precept. that would definitely complicate my practice. here! drink this for sense restraint, renunciation, and patient endurance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cake_of_Light then masturbate to sleep after some kinky sex trance! :toilet:
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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SDC
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Re: Here's an interesting one for you...

Post by SDC »

:popcorn:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Beautiful Breath
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Re: Here's an interesting one for you...

Post by Beautiful Breath »

This is ridiculous and REALLY funny ! ! !

Are there any Moderators watching this at all? Why wasn't this thread kicked into touch and others reminded of the original post whilst offering those who want to talk about Magick (on a Buddhist forum) the opportunity to open another thread.

If we can talk about Crowley can I open a thread about the New Kadampa Tradition....no double standards in here......are there?

As it stands the initial post about practice has been sucessfully hijacked an is now an argument about Magick!

:rules:

Oh well...
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SDC
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Re: Here's an interesting one for you...

Post by SDC »

Starting a thread with :stirthepot: is usually a recipe for awesome.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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convivium
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Re: Here's an interesting one for you...

Post by convivium »

OP:
My question is this, why 'don't' you practice other methods that you may have experience of....whats your rationale?
tantric methods don't count as "other methods" but gelug-style rationalization does? i guess you don't know what went on behind closed curtains in tibet for thousands of years. :namaste: :guns:
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Here's an interesting one for you...

Post by m0rl0ck »

I for one, am somewhat enjoying this thread :)
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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mikenz66
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Re: Here's an interesting one for you...

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi BB,
Beautiful Breath wrote:This is ridiculous and REALLY funny ! ! !

Are there any Moderators watching this at all? Why wasn't this thread kicked into touch and others reminded of the original post whilst offering those who want to talk about Magick (on a Buddhist forum) the opportunity to open another thread.

If we can talk about Crowley can I open a thread about the New Kadampa Tradition....no double standards in here......are there?

As it stands the initial post about practice has been sucessfully hijacked an is now an argument about Magick!

:rules:

Oh well...
Yes, I have no idea what the relevance of most of the posts on this thread have to Theravada meditation, which is why I moved it to Open Dhamma.

Since the OP did invite comment about non-Theravada techniques, it's hard to draw the line here...

:anjali:
Mike
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Beautiful Breath
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Re: Here's an interesting one for you...

Post by Beautiful Breath »

...yeah I invited experiences from other 'Buddhist' traditions - that's quite clear from my initial question. It wasn't meant to include ALL other religions....good grief...!!!

... anyway, crack on and enjoy your indulgences.

BB...
danieLion
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Re: Here's an interesting one for you...

Post by danieLion »

danieLion wrote:you single this itsy-bitsy corner out and act as if it's a representative sample of what Magick in its entirety is.
convivium wrote:fine, but it's the culmination or "highest degree" of crowley's system....
Wrong again. There are three degrees above the "sex magic" grades: Magister Templi, Impissimus and Magus.
danieLion wrote:And as for to its relationship to Buddhism, unless you're a monk, none of these things are forbidden.
convivium wrote:i'm not sure how e.g. that eroto comotose thing could be in line with the 3rd precept. that would definitely complicate my practice. here! drink this for sense restraint, renunciation, and patient endurance....
I understand how this might be difficult if you're used to assuming that the way you view the world is the way everyone else should view the world. If you or other lay practitioners feel "sex magic" violates the 3rd precept then it does. But that doesn't make it universally applicable to all lay practitioners. Sexual misconduct is a very ambiguous term open to a variety of interpretations (except for the ordained), and if you knew anything about Magick you'd know that it involves extreme sense restraint, dedicated renunciation and tremendous amounts of patient endurance (Cf. Perdurabo).
danieLion
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Re: Here's an interesting one for you...

Post by danieLion »

Beautiful Breath wrote:...yeah I invited experiences from other 'Buddhist' traditions - that's quite clear from my initial question. It wasn't meant to include ALL other religions....good grief...!!!
That's your fault for not specifying it in your OP, and it was not at all clear from initial question. We're not mind readers! And you did not indicate in any way that it was to be restricted to Buddhist traditions--and you're still being ambigous by putting apostrophe quotes around the term 'Buddhist."

Magick, especially from Crowley's perspective, utilizes many Buddhist methods, especially Satipatthana.

If it really bugs you I'm sure the moderators would make it a separate topic. But don't pretend like you didn't open the door, because that was uour doing, not ours.
Last edited by danieLion on Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Here's an interesting one for you...

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
danieLion wrote:
Beautiful Breath wrote:...yeah I invited experiences from other 'Buddhist' traditions - that's quite clear from my initial question. It wasn't meant to include ALL other religions....good grief...!!!
That's your fault for not specifying it in your OP, and it was not at all clear from initial question. We're not mind readers! And you did not indicate in any way that it was to be restricted to Buddhist traditions--and you're still being ambigous by putting apostrophe quotes around the term 'Buddhist."
A guide on how to get the most out of your new topics
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8784

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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