global warming

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
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Buckwheat
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Re: global warming

Post by Buckwheat » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:48 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:So what's more important, stopping deforestation and planting new trees or somehow banishing SUVs from this earth and taxing companies extra for their carbon emissions? (not that they're mutually exclusive, just wondering what people think is more important, protecting the biosphere through conservation or reforming human use of resources)

Maybe I'll make this a new topic and anyone else is of course free to start it as well. That might actually be constructive
You are absolutely right that protecting biosheres in their natural state is the highest priority. However, the whole point of reducing our impact is to preserve those biospheres, so you are making a false dichotemy. They go hand in hand.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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Kim OHara
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Re: global warming

Post by Kim OHara » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:02 am

Thanks, Buckwheat - :goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost:
:clap: :clap:
:namaste:
Kim

Buckwheat
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Re: global warming

Post by Buckwheat » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:30 am

In another post by Alex, he cited that humans are adding 3.76% more CO2, than the natural emission of earth processes. 3.76% of any Earth process is no chump change. In fact, I'm a little shocked at how high that number is.

Frankly, Alex, if you listen to an interview with a real climate scientist, they are considering a dozen factors that haven't even entered into this discussion, so the most important facts are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific ... ate_change
Dissenting

As of 2007, when the American Association of Petroleum Geologists released a revised statement,[103] no scientific body of national or international standing rejected the findings of human-induced effects on climate change.[10][11]
Even the Oil companies are getting on board...
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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Kim OHara
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Re: global warming

Post by Kim OHara » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:46 am

Buckwheat wrote:
As of 2007, when the American Association of Petroleum Geologists released a revised statement,[103] no scientific body of national or international standing rejected the findings of human-induced effects on climate change.[10][11]
Even the Oil companies are getting on board...
They are voting with their feet and chequebooks, too, actively taking out exploration leases in areas that would normally be under Arctic ice year-round. They know they will have access. They must know why they will have access. And still the greedy lying bastards* go ahead and do their utmost to increase the damage they are doing.

:jedi:
Kim

*not my phrase - see http://greedylyingbastards.com/ ... and go watch it if you can.

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Mr Man
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Re: global warming

Post by Mr Man » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:57 am

Buckwheat wrote:
:thumbsup: lots of :goodpost:

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Kim OHara
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Re: global warming

Post by Kim OHara » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:48 am

While we're thinking about protecting the environment ... dont' forget Earth Hour
It's largely symbolic, of course, but we need symbols and it's a lovely one.
http://www.earthhour.org/

:group:
Kim

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tiltbillings
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Re: global warming

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:10 am

manas wrote:One solution that might please everyone concerned, would be to merge this topic with something called 'The Great Global Warming Debate',
If some one can find that thread for me, I'll merge them.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Kim OHara
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Re: global warming

Post by Kim OHara » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:39 am

tiltbillings wrote:
manas wrote:One solution that might please everyone concerned, would be to merge this topic with something called 'The Great Global Warming Debate',
If some one can find that thread for me, I'll merge them.
I don't think there is one, Tilt - and if there was, I'm sure I would remember it. :tongue:
Manas may be thinking of "The New Normal", which qualifies as a Great Global Warming Debate, or he may be suggesting a new all-in-one equivalent of the Great Rebirth thread. At this stage, however, this thread has taken on a life of its own, it has a good general title and the "New Normal" has been dead and locked for months. Maybe this thread should be the beginning of any ongoing 'Great Global Warming Debate'?

:namaste:
Kim

Edit: added an afterthought.

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daverupa
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Re: global warming

Post by daverupa » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:04 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:Thanks, Buckwheat - :goodpost:
Mr Man wrote:
Buckwheat wrote:
:thumbsup: lots of :goodpost:
:goodpost:

Indeed, up to a third time, let me also express admiration for your patience and tenacity in skillfully addressing those various points. Where innumerable means of making statements abounded, you chose among the best ways of wording and phrasing.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Alex123
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Re: global warming

Post by Alex123 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:56 pm

Buckwheat wrote:
Alex123 wrote:See this:Image
This chart shows temperatures over hundreds of millions of years.
Right. It shows that when we take a wider, more inclusive perspective, today's levels are not too hot. They are actually closer to ICE Age.

Buckwheat wrote:The industrial revolution has only been affecting the atmosphere for about one millionth of that time scale. This chart is totally irrelevant to the discussion... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_event
Just like we can't make predictions about football game from first 1/1000th of a second, same about current weather. As someone has said, an eruption of volcano can easily over ride human contributions over decades.

As for extinction events. There have been previous extinction events in past hundreds of million years where MOST life forms have died. As your link says:
  • "Over 98% of documented species are now extinct,"
Even without humans, mass extinctions occur.
Last edited by Alex123 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Alex123
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Re: global warming

Post by Alex123 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:04 pm

Buckwheat wrote:In another post by Alex, he cited that humans are adding 3.76% more CO2, than the natural emission of earth processes. 3.76% of any Earth process is no chump change. In fact, I'm a little shocked at how high that number is.
How much of atmosphere is C02? 0.039%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide

How much is 3.76% of 0.039% ?!!!!! 0.376*0.039 = 0.0014664%

This means that nature itself affects 100-0.0014664= 99.9985336% atmosphere.


So, the earth "sneezes" and it can easily cancel out any man made changes (if any).
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Alex123
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Re: global warming

Post by Alex123 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:10 pm

Buckwheat wrote: What matters is how fast it's changing right now.
It is not changing fast at all. In fact some reports suggest that it has stopped getting much warmer. And even IF, even IF, it is getting warmer - how do we know that it is our "0.0014664%" contribution of a gas to the atmosphere that doesn't even cause global warming? Sun and weather events on Earth are much more powerful than us and can easily cancel out any (if any) effects we have made.


I can find more graphs like:

Image
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Dan74
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Re: global warming

Post by Dan74 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:43 pm

Maybe Danielion can interject and list the number of errors of logic in the preceding three posts.

E.g.

1. the fact that there is not a lot of CO2 in the atmosphere does not mean that it has no effect, just like me taking mere 0.0001% of potassium cyanide in my drink does not mean it will have no effect on my health.

2. Extensive modeling of the greenhouse effects on C02 has been done and shown that not only does it cause warming, but the amounts we have contributed can cause significant warming.

etc

Some years ago I've worked with a scientist who was a co-author of one of the UN Reports on Climate Change who's also written several pamphlets debunking common myths and misconceptions (more on that below). He was the first to admit that the precise extent of the warming is very hard to predict. A lot of uncertainty still exists but not in the actual fact of warming, just in the extent. Here's pretty thorough info written by some of the top people in the field (if anyone is interested in getting informed on the subject):

http://www.climatechange.gov.au/climate ... ntury.aspx

More detail:

http://www.science.org.au/policy/climatechange.html

And it's also a good idea to try to inform oneself on the concept of a "trend". For the impatient and the time-challenged:

http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/ ... ll-correct

Here's an interesting read for everybody on how vital issues have been obfuscated by the special interest groups:

http://www.merchantsofdoubt.org/
_/|\_

Buckwheat
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Re: global warming

Post by Buckwheat » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:13 pm

You are totally ignoring all the counter-arguments I made. The only new point you made was this:
Alex123 wrote:As for extinction events. There have been previous extinction events in past hundreds of million years where MOST life forms have died. As your link says:
"Over 98% of documented species are now extinct,"
Even without humans, mass extinctions occur.
Even without humans, there is death. Does that make murder OK? No, it does not. Do we want to be the generation that allows a mass extinction to occur because we are too busy chasing fleeting pleasures to make the sacrifices necessary to prevent the mass extinction? Let's be clear: we are in the middle of a major extinction event, and it is caused by human action. We may choose to continue killing, or we may choose to reduce our impact to allow natural forces to resume their natural ebb and flow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

Buckwheat
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Re: global warming

Post by Buckwheat » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:29 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Buckwheat wrote:In another post by Alex, he cited that humans are adding 3.76% more CO2, than the natural emission of earth processes. 3.76% of any Earth process is no chump change. In fact, I'm a little shocked at how high that number is.
How much of atmosphere is C02? 0.039%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide

How much is 3.76% of 0.039% ?!!!!! 0.376*0.039 = 0.0014664%

This means that nature itself affects 100-0.0014664= 99.9985336% atmosphere.


So, the earth "sneezes" and it can easily cancel out any man made changes (if any).
Please find me a quote from reputable climate scientists saying that human contribution of greenhouse gasses to the atmosphere is insignificant.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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