How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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pink_trike
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by pink_trike »

tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Pink_trike,

I think you know full well that's not what Tilt was talking about...

Perhaps you could comment instead of what benefits you have received from your investigation into Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's teachings?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Full well? Uh, no...I'm rarely clear what people mean in forum land...are u? I'm responding to Tilt's idea of what is "wanting"...something that I consider to be much more relevant to the the conversation. "Wanting" is rarely separate from "comfort zone".
And you asked me what that was? I would have said: "not worthy of serious consideration." No need for comfort zone stuff here.
Np. Buddhism is "open source". I find your view of Buddhism to be limited and unrealistic. You may find mine to be dangerously inclusive. We are both, likely, aiming moth-like at the same truth. My guess is that we both want whatever is the most beneficial to all living beings.
Last edited by pink_trike on Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by tiltbillings »

pink_trike wrote: Np. Buddhism is "open source". I find your view of Buddhism to be limited and unrealistic. You may find mine to be dangerously inclusive. We probably are aiming, moth-like, at the same truth. Hopefully, we both want whatever is the most beneficial to all living beings.
You seem to be having an argument with stuff that I have not said. That can be interesting, so do not let me stop you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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pink_trike
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by pink_trike »

:tongue:
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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appicchato
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by appicchato »

pink_trike wrote:...I'm rarely clear what people mean in forum land...
Ain't that the truth... :coffee:
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by Individual »

appicchato wrote:
pink_trike wrote:...I'm rarely clear what people mean in forum land...
Ain't that the truth... :coffee:
Now what's THAT supposed to mean?!

(just kidding :rofl:)
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I've been asked to post the following correspondence between a Buddhist and Santikaro, relating to some of the views expressed in this topic.
Greetings Santikaro

I have been reading on the internet of your advising people Buddhadasa believed in literal rebirth.

Trusting you are well
Howdy ---

Hmmm ... I wonder who got that idea & how. I can't remember ever saying or writing such a thing, only that I've heard him talk w/ some people about the traditional understanding of rebirth, but that doesn't mean he believed. His attitude was more like "wait and see."

Best wishes.

In Dhamma, Santikaro
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ben
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by Ben »

Here's what Bhikkhu Bodhi said on the subject when i asked him regarding the evidence in the suttas of instantaneousness of rebirth/intermediate state:
There definitely seem to be suggestions in the suttas that there is a temporal gap, an intermediate state, between lives, at least with respect to rebirth in the human realm and in the case of non-returners. I have a long note to the Connected Discourses of the Buddha (Samyutta Nikaya), chapter 46, which explores this question in regard to the fivefold distinction among non-returners. I will paste it in below.

The position that rebirth is instantaneous is strongly maintained by the Theravada commentaries, but other schools of Indian Buddhism based on the early collections (pre-Mahayana) supported an intermediate state. This became a ground of contention among the Buddhist schools, sometimes generating a lot of emotional friction, but the issue seems to be given very little importance in the early discourses. Nevertheless, there are passages that suggest (quite clearly, in my opinion) that there is an intermediate state. For example, the famous Metta Sutta speaks of extending loving-kindness to 'bhuutaa vaa sambhavesii vaa' -- "to beings who have come to be and those about to come to be" -- and the suttas on nutriment say that the four kinds of nutriment are "for the maintence of those that have come to be and to assist those about to come to be." Those beings that are sambhavesii, "about to come to be" (or "seeking existence") must be an allusion to those in the intermediate state seeking a new rebirth.
See too SN 44:9, in which Vacchagotta asks the Buddha: "When a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that occasion?" The Buddha does not reject V's question by asserting that such a situation is impossible. He says, rather, that in such a situation "I declare that it is fueled by craving.382 For on that occasion craving is its fuel."

Note 382 reads:
382. Tam aha˙ ta˚hÒp›d›na˙ vad›mi. The Buddha’s statement seems to imply that a temporal gap can intervene between the death moment and reconception. Since this contradicts Therav›da orthodoxy, Spk contends that at the death moment itself the being is said to be “not yet reborn” because the rebirth-consciousness has not yet arisen.
I have also found evidence for beings in this state from the reported rebirth memories of people who (without meditative experience) can recollect their previous life and death. Several cases I have read of this type report that the being, after passing away, spends some time moving about in a subtle body (identical in form with their previous body, hence with a sense of the same personal identity) until they find themselves drawn towards a particular couple, who then become their new parents. Some cases like this are included in Francis Story's book, Rebirth as Doctrine and Experience (published by the Buddhist Publcation Society, Kandy, Sri Lanka).

See too Peter Harvey's book, The Selfless Mind (Curzon) which I refer to in the note below.
65 This fivefold typology of nonreturners recurs at 48:15, 24, 66; 51:26; 54:5; and 55:25. Spk explains the antar›parinibb›yı (“attainer of Nibb›na in the interval”) as one reborn in the Pure Abodes who attains arahantship during the first half of the life span. This type is subdivided into three, depending on whether arahantship is reached: (i) on the very day of rebirth; (ii) after one or two hundred aeons have elapsed; or (iii) after four hundred aeons have elapsed. The upahaccaparinibb›yı (“attainer of Nibb›na upon landing”) is explained as one who attains arahantship after passing the first half of the life span. For Spk, the asaºkh›raparinibb›yı (“attainer without exertion”) and the sasaºkh›raparinibb›yı (“attainer with exertion”) then become two modes in which the first two types of nonreturners attain the goal. This explanation originates from Pp 16–17 (commented on at Pp-a 198–201). However, not only does this account of the first two types disregard the literal meaning of their names, but it also overrides the sequential and mutually exclusive nature of the five types as delineated elsewhere in the suttas (see below).
If we understand the term antar›parinibb›yı literally, as it seems we should, it then means one who attains Nibb›na in the interval between two lives, perhaps while existing in a subtle body in the intermediate state. The upahaccaparinibb›yı then becomes one who attains Nibb›na “upon landing” or “striking ground” in the new existence, i.e., almost immediately after taking rebirth. The next two terms designate two types who attain arahantship in the course of the next life, distinguished by the amount of effort they must make to win the goal. The last, the uddha˙sota akani˛˛hag›mı, is one who takes rebirth in successive Pure Abodes, completes the full life span in each, and finally attains arahantship in the Akani˛˛ha realm, the highest Pure Abode.
This interpretation, adopted by several non-Therav›da schools of early Buddhism, seems to be confirmed by the Purisagati Sutta (AN IV 70–74), in which the simile of the flaming chip suggests that the seven types (including the three kinds of antar›parinibb›yı) are mutually exclusive and have been graded according to the sharpness of their faculties. Additional support comes from AN II 134,25–29, which explains the antar›parinibb›yı as one who has abandoned the fetter of rebirth (upapattisa˙yojana) without yet having abandoned the fetter of existence (bhavasa˙yojana). Though the Therav›din proponents argue against this interpretation of antar›parinibb›yı (e.g., at Kv 366), the evidence from the suttas leans strongly in its favour. For a detailed discussion, see Harvey, The Selfless Mind, pp. 98–108.
AN II 155–56 draws an alternative distinction between the sasaºkh›raparinibb›yı and the asaºkh›raparinibb›yı: the former reaches arahantship through meditation on the “austere” meditation subjects such as the foulness of the body, the perception of the repulsiveness of food, discontent with the whole world, the perception of impermanence in all formations, and mindfulness of death; the latter, through the four jh›nas.
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Ben
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by Ben »

retrofuturist wrote:
Howdy ---

Hmmm ... I wonder who got that idea & how. I can't remember ever saying or writing such a thing, only that I've heard him talk w/ some people about the traditional understanding of rebirth, but that doesn't mean he believed. His attitude was more like "wait and see."

Best wishes.

In Dhamma, Santikaro
Metta,
Retro. :)
That's actually excellent advice. And its a long way from saying the Buddha didn't teach rebirth or that it meant something for one group of disciple and something else for another group of disciple.
'wait and see', I'm happy to do just that.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,

Yes, it was a pleasant surprise. I found it quite "untainted".

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Indeed so why bother having a view of Rebirth at all then?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:Indeed so why bother having a view of Rebirth at all then?
Because the Buddha taught it as the way things work and it helps put one's life into a broader perspective.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by Ceisiwr »

But if one takes the view of "wait and see" then one doesnt need to take up a view of rebirth since that person is happy with it being an unknown
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by kc2dpt »

clw_uk wrote:But if one takes the view of "wait and see" then one doesnt need to take up a view of rebirth since that person is happy with it being an unknown
Since when did "being happy with it" constitute a valid argument? I am happy eating bacon but that doesn't make it good nor healthy. You are clearly happy with your view; no one here disputes that. The dispute is whether your view is in line with Buddhist teachings or not.
- Peter

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tiltbillings
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:But if one takes the view of "wait and see" then one doesnt need to take up a view of rebirth since that person is happy with it being an unknown
"Wait and see" is a view. My point is that rebirth is what the Buddha taught, it is tied up directly with paticcasamuppada, but no one is forcing you to do anything, and you can believe what you wish.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Peter wrote:
clw_uk wrote:But if one takes the view of "wait and see" then one doesnt need to take up a view of rebirth since that person is happy with it being an unknown
Since when did "being happy with it" constitute a valid argument? I am happy eating bacon but that doesn't make it good nor healthy. You are clearly happy with your view; no one here disputes that. The dispute is whether your view is in line with Buddhist teachings or not.


If someone says "wait and see" then, to me, it is saying that the person isnt bothered about if there is or isnt rebirth, God etc and is comfortable with it being an unknown


To me one cant say "wait and see" and then say "there is rebirth" since the two sentences contradict each other


As for the slightly different topic of my view, 4nt's, i think its safe to say that it is in line

metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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