global warming

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Polar Bear
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Re: global warming

Post by Polar Bear » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:23 pm

I will admit I have absolutely no idea how much man made greenhouse gas emissions are REALLY responsible for recent changes in global climate. The variables seem to be too many to conclude, only this is true, anything else is worthless. However, cars aren't going anywhere anytime soon and forests seem to be going too quickly. The fact is that without a whole lot of forest there will be a whole lot of CO2 that stays in the atmosphere for a longer period of time, hence I reiterate that we should be more concerned with protecting wilderness areas than with buying a prius.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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manas
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Re: global warming

Post by manas » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:46 pm

polarbuddha101 wrote:I will admit I have absolutely no idea how much man made greenhouse gas emissions are REALLY responsible for recent changes in global climate. The variables seem to be too many to conclude, only this is true, anything else is worthless. However, cars aren't going anywhere anytime soon and forests seem to be going too quickly. The fact is that without a whole lot of forest there will be a whole lot of CO2 that stays in the atmosphere for a longer period of time, hence I reiterate that we should be more concerned with protecting wilderness areas than with buying a prius.
:thumbsup:

Please let's focus on stopping the near constant clearfelling of forests, the destruction of wild animal habitats, topsoil erosion and salinity, protecting biodiversity...there is so much that is indisputably important, that we can all get to work on instead. And when will people in general stop having so many babies?? If we could just stop that one thing alone, many of these other issues would, over the long term, be corrected. If we continue to grow the world's population as we currently are, no amount of clever carbon trapping technology will save us. We will basically eat ourselves to extinction.

:anjali:
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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Alex123
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Re: global warming

Post by Alex123 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:24 pm

manas wrote:'Global Warming'...now that's a term I haven't heard in a while.
Because it has not been happening, so some people made a good move by renaming it to "climate change". Of course climate changes, and nobody denies this. Thus no matter what happens, proponents of AGW can claim that they are still right...

A hotter than usual day? Man made global warming!
A colder than usual day? Oh, its an effect of man made global warming!


Climate does change on Earth, Mars, today and billions of years ago.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Alex123
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Re: global warming

Post by Alex123 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:39 pm

manas wrote:And when will people in general stop having so many babies?? If we could just stop that one thing alone, many of these other issues would, over the long term, be corrected.
Pollution, radiation, etc can do that. Unfortunately there is too much of that already. Radiation damages DNA making people sicker and die younger, and can also affect fertility rate. Some couples choose not to have kids if that means kids born with birth defects.

My concern for human race and animals is man made pollution, especially nuclear waste.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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manas
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Re: global warming

Post by manas » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:57 pm

Alex123 wrote:
manas wrote:And when will people in general stop having so many babies?? If we could just stop that one thing alone, many of these other issues would, over the long term, be corrected.
Pollution, radiation, etc can do that. Unfortunately there is too much of that already. Radiation damages DNA making people sicker and die younger, and can also affect fertility rate. Some couples choose not to have kids if that means kids born with birth defects.

My concern for human race and animals is man made pollution, especially nuclear waste.
It doesn't need to be a drastic affair. People worldwide ought to be encouraged to either not have children, or to just have one. Financial incentives could be put in place. *Strictly voluntary* sterilizations could be offered free of charge on a mass scale. That way, people who cannot control their sexual urges, can engage in them without the often inevitable result - children that, when unplanned for or unwanted, often end up uncared for or even abandoned, and further and further swell global population growth. Imho, this is the 'elephant in the room', the real global emergency, but whenever anyone talks as I did publicly, they can really get pilloried for it. It's not considered very 'PC' to say what I just said above.

:anjali:
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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Dan74
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Re: global warming

Post by Dan74 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:01 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:
danieLion wrote:What's so "usual" about the so-called "suspects" you speak of?
Hi, Daniel,
I was really thinking about Alex and http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6963.
I do apologise to you, SamVara and PB if you weren't part of that.
danieLion wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:
Yep - usual suspects.
:rolleye:
Kim
Kim. Drop the innuendo and admit you're committing the fallacy of argumentum ad populum (appeal to widespread belief, bandwagon argument, appeal to the majority, appeal to the people)--where a proposition is claimed to be true or good solely because many people believe it to be so--when you make snarky, snide comments like this.
No fallacy of argumentum ad populum, no innuendo, no snarky, no snide. Simple, honest, obvious, plainspoken - that's me.

:namaste:
Kim
I admire your tenacity and level-headedness about this, Kim. I gave up long ago.
Last edited by Dan74 on Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
_/|\_

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Alex123
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Re: global warming

Post by Alex123 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:09 am

manas wrote:It doesn't need to be a drastic affair. People worldwide ought to be encouraged to either not have children, or to just have one.

Unfortunately the amount of radiation being released into air and pacific ocean isn't getting down. There is more and more radiation, and as a side effect of that is sterility and early death. Fukushima accident may have been start of mass die off.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Alex123
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Re: global warming

Post by Alex123 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:18 am

danieLion wrote:-the fallacy of insufficient statistics/the fallacy of insufficient sample: basing broad conclusions regarding the statistics of a survey from a small sample group that fails to sufficiently represent all the data
You make a good point. We can't extrapolate a trend from hand picked data of only decades (or even a century) long considering that earth has undergone climate change for 4.5 billion years. It is like guessing the tendency of the football game from only 1/100000th seconds of action. Or it is like guessing the stock's long term trend only from a minute chart (and avoiding monthly, weekly, daily charts)

The size of data is simply too small and insignificant to make predictions with. When we take charts of LONGER, then the trend is actually down, and we are actually closer to ice age rather than hothouse.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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manas
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Re: global warming

Post by manas » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:26 am

Alex123 wrote:
manas wrote:It doesn't need to be a drastic affair. People worldwide ought to be encouraged to either not have children, or to just have one.

Unfortunately the amount of radiation being released into air and pacific ocean isn't getting down. There is more and more radiation, and as a side effect of that is sterility and early death. Fukushima accident may have been start of mass die off.
That is my point. I wish we would not destroy ourselves like this. It doesn't have to be this way. If we could just exercise more foresight and intelligence as a species, we would not end up rushing like lemmings over a cliff, towards these kinds of catastrophes, which would correct population growth in a drastic, painful way, when there are smarter, gentler, more intelligent methods.

The question is, taken as a whole - as a species - how much collective wisdom do we have? Can we correct ourselves, or will we let Nature do the correcting for us, via famine, disease, and starvation?

Metta.
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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Kim OHara
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Re: global warming

Post by Kim OHara » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:09 am

Alex123 wrote:See this:
Image
Image
Image
As I said on the thread on Dharma Wheel:
(1) out of date and unsourced.
(2) Forster appears to have some credibility but I would like to see the source and context before I said any more; Whiehouse works for a denialist think-tank which refuses to divulge its funding source (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_War ... Foundation); and Curry is a well-known denialist with little expertise in climate and less credibility.
(3) Irrelevant and misleading. As I explained to you repeatedly in "The New Normal", what happened to climate over thousands of years when there were no people around did not affect people ( :rolleye: ) but what happens over decades - as compared to the last couple of thousand years - is important and will affect people.

:namaste:
Kim

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Kim OHara
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Re: global warming

Post by Kim OHara » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:17 am

Dan74 wrote:I admire your tenacity and level-headedness about this, Kim. I gave up long ago.
Thanks, Dan :smile:
I like to think I'm determined, though my friends tend to think of me as stubborn and my enemies call me pig-headed :tongue: and I really don't like misinformation on important topics to go unchallenged and uncorrected.
And I am eternally (well, so far!) curious about why and how people manage to maintain irrational beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

:coffee:
Kim

danieLion
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Re: global warming

Post by danieLion » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:45 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:
danieLion wrote:What's so "usual" about the so-called "suspects" you speak of?
Hi, Daniel,
I was really thinking about Alex and http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6963.
I do apologise to you, SamVara and PB if you weren't part of that.
danieLion wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:
Yep - usual suspects.
:rolleye:
Kim
Kim. Drop the innuendo and admit you're committing the fallacy of argumentum ad populum (appeal to widespread belief, bandwagon argument, appeal to the majority, appeal to the people)--where a proposition is claimed to be true or good solely because many people believe it to be so--when you make snarky, snide comments like this.
No fallacy of argumentum ad populum, no innuendo, no snarky, no snide. Simple, honest, obvious, plainspoken - that's me.

:namaste:
Kim
My apologies.

danieLion
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Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: global warming

Post by danieLion » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:49 am

daverupa wrote:
As of 2007, when the American Association of Petroleum Geologists released a revised statement, no scientific body of national or international standing rejected the findings of human-induced effects on climate change.
source

:spy:
If there going to use it to tax me or otherwise regulate my behavior it had better be more than opinion, whiche is all their fancy inferences and inductions amount to.

danieLion
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Re: global warming

Post by danieLion » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:59 am

manas wrote:The question is, taken as a whole - as a species - how much collective wisdom do we have? Can we correct ourselves, or will we let Nature do the correcting for us, via famine, disease, and starvation?
According to the Buddha we have very little wisdom, individually or collectively. If it were otherwise, we wouldn't need The Path. We'd just free ourselves with little Effort. But even when we free ourselves via The Path, this does not eliminate physical death, whether it come in the form of famine, disease, starvation, etc.... Famine, disease, starvation, and physical death are Nature, and have always been so and will always be desptie our little, tiny, current opionions about climate change or global warming. The Path has nothing to do with overcoming Nature. The Path is about accepting Nature in all it's gory, bloody, deadly, impersonal and invetitable FORCE. Nature doesn't give a f*ck what we think about global warming or climate change. Nature will always win in the end, and thinking we can change that is pure delusion and contrary to The Path.

danieLion
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Re: global warming

Post by danieLion » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:05 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:what happened to climate over thousands of years when there were no people around did not affect people ( :rolleye: ) but what happens over decades - as compared to the last couple of thousand years - is important and will affect people.
You're committing the informal fallacy of insufficient sample sizes (the fallacy of insufficient statistics/the fallacy of insufficient sample: basing broad conclusions regarding the statistics of a survey from a small sample group that fails to sufficiently represent all the data) which also qualifies your predictions as commissions of the informal fallacy known as hasty generalization (generalization from the particular/leaping to a conclusion/hasty induction/secundum quid: inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence; essentially making a hasty conclusion without considering all of the variables).

Is my level-headed tenacity over your head?

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