Ajahn Brahm for sale?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Gena1480
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Gena1480 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:48 pm

where does a Bhikkhu go
when breaking a rule
does he go to the support of the Sangha
that ordain him.
i know its not of any of my Business,
but remembering the sutta where even Arahant didn't have inclination to teach ordain Bhikkhunis
only from direct instruction from the Buddha they change their mind.

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Dan74
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Dan74 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:27 am

I am wondering what the purpose of this thread is?

Have you written to Ajahn Brahm, Cittasanto? That would be useful.

Other than that, it just sounds like a whole lot of conceit to believe one's take on Vinaya and the Dhamma to be superior to an outstanding monk ordained for nearly 40 years, especially for one who's been on this earth for barely half this long?

I mean questioning is great but it's got to be open-minded and respectful and this seems to be increasingly rare these days.
_/|\_

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SDC
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by SDC » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:40 am

Dan74 wrote:I am wondering what the purpose of this thread is?

Have you written to Ajahn Brahm, Cittasanto? That would be useful.

Other than that, it just sounds like a whole lot of conceit to believe one's take on Vinaya and the Dhamma to be superior to an outstanding monk ordained for nearly 40 years, especially for one who's been on this earth for barely half this long?

I mean questioning is great but it's got to be open-minded and respectful and this seems to be increasingly rare these days.
Good post, Dan

Gena1480
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Gena1480 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:45 am

where do i go to write
i'm interested
maybe i
will learn something.

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:59 am

Cittasanto wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote: Ajahn Chah also read the palm of the hand of a disciple, breaking a vinaya rule.
Ajahn Chah had his palms read once, but I have never heard of him reading palms, he had this strange scoff apparently when asked to see his palms so it is strange!
can you provide a reference?
I remember this story beeing told by one of his disciples. I've googled it, but didn't find a reference, because it was on an audio file. It was basicaly like this. It was when a generous benefactor of Ajahn Chah's monastery received a dhamma talk on the importance of gratitude. The next day the benefactor went to Ajahn Chah and asked him to read his palm. Ajahn Chah declined. The benefactor reminded Ajahn Chah of his previous dhamma talk on the importance of gratitude. So Ajahn Chah was kind of forced to read the benefactor's palm.

I'm not judging Ajahn Chah here. I wish I had 1 hundreth of his discipline. I believe he was an arahat. What I'm saying is that even an arahat can break the vinaya. I'm not defending a lax behaviour either. Obviously good monks do the best they can to mantain the vinaya. But the best they can is not perfect. There is a reason for there being punishments in the vinaya: monks break it. Different monks break different vinaya rules and there is a procedure for overcoming those faults. This is basicaly a monks' issue, so I think we should abstain from making public judgement, such as saying that Ajahn Brahm is prostituting his time. What a horrible way to put it!

James nailed it when he reminded the Devadatta's schism. Monks holding other monks with higher standards than those the Buddha himself laid down for his Sangha. What to say then of lay people, who don't have experience with living everyday with the vinaya, judging the monks who don't live with a higher standard than that in the vinaya?
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

santa100
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by santa100 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:35 am

It'd be great if more monastics could provide their take on the matter: Thanissaro, Bodhi, etc. The Sangha should operate in an open and transparent manner and the voices of the monastics as well as lay communities are extremely important in keeping it that way. Thank you Ven. Pesala for being the first monastic to give an opinion. But we need more. It's no coincidence that monks at the end of the summer retreat have to gather together and ask one another to point out any mistake they've made. The tradition needs to be kept alive to maintain the health of the Sangha. Ven. Bodhi actually already voiced his objection to Ven. Brahm once back in 2009:
...I have been regretfully forced to the conclusion that Ajahn Brahm and yourself were at fault for proceeding in the hasty and secretive way in which you conducted the ordination. In my opinion, in view of the fact that Ajahn Brahm had been an important and much respected member of this community, he should have discussed the issue openly and fully at a meeting with all its prominent representatives, and patiently attempted to prevail upon them with the art of persuasion... ( http://sujato.wordpress.com/2009/11/08/ ... -response/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

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m0rl0ck
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by m0rl0ck » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:48 am

Dan74 wrote:I am wondering what the purpose of this thread is?

Have you written to Ajahn Brahm, Cittasanto? That would be useful.

Other than that, it just sounds like a whole lot of conceit to believe one's take on Vinaya and the Dhamma to be superior to an outstanding monk ordained for nearly 40 years, especially for one who's been on this earth for barely half this long?

I mean questioning is great but it's got to be open-minded and respectful and this seems to be increasingly rare these days.
:goodpost:
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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tiltbillings
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:57 am

santa100 wrote:It'd be great if more monastics could provide their take on the matter:
Why? Is what Ven B doing that grave of an action?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Polar Bear
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Polar Bear » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:15 am

It certainly isn't some horrible thing Ajahn Brahm is doing and he has the best of intentions. I just think that the Buddha would disapprove of the way Ven Brahm is going about it, which of course is of no consequence since he isn't around anymore anyway so that's just my take on it. I apologize for the way I wrote my second comment on this thread and I deleted it a couple of days ago, it came off sounding worse than I wanted it to. I don't think it's dour though to have an opinion on how bhikkhu's should go around acquiring requisites (shelter in this case) either for themselves or for their fellow samanas when the opinion is at least somewhat educated but anyway, enough said. I hope the bhikkhuni's in Australia get to have the planned monastery and may they all realize nibbana in this very life.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:24 am

polarbuddha101 wrote: I don't think it's dour though to have an opinion
Of course not, though the
selling of "Ajahn Brahm" as a way of doing things -- the "ad" -- was meant to be funny. Some of the responses to the ad were, indeed, a bit dour.

But, again, why would we need to turn this into an international incident involving other well known monks?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

SamKR
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by SamKR » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:25 am

tiltbillings wrote:
santa100 wrote:It'd be great if more monastics could provide their take on the matter:
Why? Is what Ven B doing that grave of an action?
No. But "Ajahn Brahm for Sale" does not sound good (to my ears). Funding can be raised for the nun's monastery directly without any "sale" or bidding of a monk. Maybe I am too literalist.

SamKR
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by SamKR » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:32 am

tiltbillings wrote:the selling of "Ajahn Brahm" as a way of doing things -- the "ad" -- was meant to be funny.
It's not only meant to be funny. The bidding is real, isn't it?
Last edited by SamKR on Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:37 am

SamKR wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:the selling of "Ajahn Brahm" as a way of doing things -- the "ad" -- was meant to be funny.
It's not just meant to be funny. The bidding is real, isn't it?
And your point is?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

SamKR
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by SamKR » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:48 am

tiltbillings wrote:
SamKR wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:the selling of "Ajahn Brahm" as a way of doing things -- the "ad" -- was meant to be funny.
It's not just meant to be funny. The bidding is real, isn't it?
And your point is?
It's just that auction of a Dhamma teacher for teaching Dhamma does not sound good, as I posted above. Why it does not sound good to me? It just does not sound good, and there's no reason except my belief that Dhamma teaching should not be dependent on finance no matter where the funding goes.
Last edited by SamKR on Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

Gena1480
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Gena1480 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:49 am

so i registered with dhammaloka community
there seems to be a fee for posting
but i have no idea how to pay this fee
can someone help.

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