satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
alan...
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Post by alan... » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:05 am

Sylvester wrote:For those interested in what textual criticism turned up on this subject of thinking and satipatthana -

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... nt#p166557" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... nt#p197641" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In short, looking at 4 different Pali collections of MN 125, they are evenly split between 2 groups that say -

1. contemplate the 4 satipatthanas, but do not think thoughts connected with the body, feelings, mind and states; versus
2. contemplate the 4 satipatthanas, but do not think thoughts connected with kaama/kaamaa.

Decisions, decisions. Which reading should we choose?
wow. this comes from a translation of two different recensions of the tipitaka or differences from different suttas on the same topics or what?

Dinsdale
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:19 am

alan... wrote:
porpoise wrote:
alan... wrote:so what i'm thinking now is perhaps i just use very deep mindfulness and stay with whatever i'm doing 100% at all times. this will allow me to be totally mindful, i will certainly notice the rise and fall of things, and it will also help destroy grasping at ideas as, when i'm noting and thinking, i start to theorize and come up with ideas. instead i'll just be free.
if i do it this way is it still satipatthana?
I find that the 4 foundations of mindfulness are a useful framework for developing mindfulness, sometimes I simplify them to just "body" and "mind". I also find that simple noting ( labelling ) is a helpful support, I generally use single words like "thinking" or "walking".
that's what i wonder though, if i don't label anything am i still getting the benefit?
I think it depends where you are with your practice of mindfulness. And there are other options, some people return to the breath at regular intervals or use a mantra. If I'm outside I tend to use physical sensations like wind on my face. Probably it's about being creative and finding what works.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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IanAnd
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Post by IanAnd » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:09 pm

alan... wrote:
porpoise wrote: I find that the 4 foundations of mindfulness are a useful framework for developing mindfulness, sometimes I simplify them to just "body" and "mind". I also find that simple noting ( labelling ) is a helpful support, I generally use single words like "thinking" or "walking".
that's what i wonder though, if i don't label anything am i still getting the benefit?
I second porpoise's main premise that the four establishments of mindfulness is perhaps the best framework for developing the gradual path toward awakening through mindfulness. However, one should not eliminate the perception of vedana from the mix as it will help demonstrate depending co-arising when one is working at eliminating unwholesome reactions/responses from one's mental processes. Recognizing the origin of the unwholesome reaction, if it happens at all, happens after the feeling (vedana) quality has been noticed and recorded by the mind. Then, you KNOW the origin of that mental state and are therefore able to take steps to amend it if necessary.

As for the labeling thing, what matters most in this instance is mental recognition (or sanna) of whatever phenomenon one is observing/perceiving mindfully. Without that recognition (which occurs in a discrete moment in time) the mind will not necessarily take note of it and will forget it. If it helps to mentally use single words to make that recognition stick, then do so. Otherwise, one can using "mental intent" take "note," so to speak, without mentally verbalizing a descriptive word. What matters is the action of intentionally stopping to recognize the phenomenon, taking a moment for it to register in the mind.

In other words, "do as you see fit" with regard to which ever method works best for you. Make sense?
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

alan...
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Post by alan... » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:56 am

porpoise wrote:
I think it depends where you are with your practice of mindfulness. And there are other options, some people return to the breath at regular intervals or use a mantra. If I'm outside I tend to use physical sensations like wind on my face. Probably it's about being creative and finding what works.
interesting. i find i'm always stuck between liberal ideas and literal "this is the one and only interpretation and method that works" ideas. i like your thinking, but i also wonder about the specificity of the suttas. then again, they are broadly written in many ways as well, hence all the perceived need for interpretation.

alan...
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Post by alan... » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:57 am

IanAnd wrote:
alan... wrote:
porpoise wrote: I find that the 4 foundations of mindfulness are a useful framework for developing mindfulness, sometimes I simplify them to just "body" and "mind". I also find that simple noting ( labelling ) is a helpful support, I generally use single words like "thinking" or "walking".
that's what i wonder though, if i don't label anything am i still getting the benefit?
I second porpoise's main premise that the four establishments of mindfulness is perhaps the best framework for developing the gradual path toward awakening through mindfulness. However, one should not eliminate the perception of vedana from the mix as it will help demonstrate depending co-arising when one is working at eliminating unwholesome reactions/responses from one's mental processes. Recognizing the origin of the unwholesome reaction, if it happens at all, happens after the feeling (vedana) quality has been noticed and recorded by the mind. Then, you KNOW the origin of that mental state and are therefore able to take steps to amend it if necessary.

As for the labeling thing, what matters most in this instance is mental recognition (or sanna) of whatever phenomenon one is observing/perceiving mindfully. Without that recognition (which occurs in a discrete moment in time) the mind will not necessarily take note of it and will forget it. If it helps to mentally use single words to make that recognition stick, then do so. Otherwise, one can using "mental intent" take "note," so to speak, without mentally verbalizing a descriptive word. What matters is the action of intentionally stopping to recognize the phenomenon, taking a moment for it to register in the mind.

In other words, "do as you see fit" with regard to which ever method works best for you. Make sense?
certainly. good advice, thank you.

Dinsdale
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:02 pm

alan... wrote:
porpoise wrote:
I think it depends where you are with your practice of mindfulness. And there are other options, some people return to the breath at regular intervals or use a mantra. If I'm outside I tend to use physical sensations like wind on my face. Probably it's about being creative and finding what works.
interesting. i find i'm always stuck between liberal ideas and literal "this is the one and only interpretation and method that works" ideas. i like your thinking, but i also wonder about the specificity of the suttas. then again, they are broadly written in many ways as well, hence all the perceived need for interpretation.
I take the view that if a method works and isn't contradicting the suttas then it has some validity and is worth looking at.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

alan...
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Post by alan... » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:49 pm

porpoise wrote:
alan... wrote:
porpoise wrote:
I think it depends where you are with your practice of mindfulness. And there are other options, some people return to the breath at regular intervals or use a mantra. If I'm outside I tend to use physical sensations like wind on my face. Probably it's about being creative and finding what works.
interesting. i find i'm always stuck between liberal ideas and literal "this is the one and only interpretation and method that works" ideas. i like your thinking, but i also wonder about the specificity of the suttas. then again, they are broadly written in many ways as well, hence all the perceived need for interpretation.
I take the view that if a method works and isn't contradicting the suttas then it has some validity and is worth looking at.
smart thinking.

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Nyorai
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Post by Nyorai » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:59 am

this sutta is about details in all one's internal & external organs, and the inner thoughts, understanding from the liberal aspect but contemplating solely on the literal of the source code. This source code you need to realize it, otherwise all contemplation is gearing into its realization. The actualization thereafter depends on one aptitude and hardwork.
ImageTo become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana.
If you light a lamp for somebody, it will also brighten your path. He who experiences the unity of life sees his own Self in all beings, and all beings in his own Self.Image

Dinsdale
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:47 pm

IanAnd wrote:
porpoise wrote: I find that the 4 foundations of mindfulness are a useful framework for developing mindfulness, sometimes I simplify them to just "body" and "mind".
I second porpoise's main premise that the four establishments of mindfulness is perhaps the best framework for developing the gradual path toward awakening through mindfulness. However, one should not eliminate the perception of vedana from the mix as it will help demonstrate depending co-arising when one is working at eliminating unwholesome reactions/responses from one's mental processes.
I agree that it's important to include vedana, but given the distinction in the suttas between physical and mental vedana it seems reasonable to put physical vedana with "body" and mental vedana with "mind".
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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