Ajahn Brahm for sale?

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Mr Man
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Mr Man » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:12 pm

marc108 wrote:lol I think its funny.
I honestly cannot see how it is funny. Funny for me is Tommy Cooper
marc108 wrote:Ajahn Brahm is great and what he's doing for the Bhikkhuni's is great as well.
Might be great but in my opinion it is not relivent here.
marc108 wrote:Of course other people are going to try to project their perceptions of what they think a Bhikkhu should or should not be doing...
I don't think it is a case of projecting perceptions.
marc108 wrote:but really, who are we to tell Ajahn Brahm anything lol.
Why not?

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:15 pm

I visited the Dhammasara Nun's site, but I could find no evidence for this alleged sale of Ajahn Brahma's time.

Apparently, it is for real. I found this page on Dhammaloka.org
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Cittasanto
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Cittasanto » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:24 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:I visited the Dhammasara Nun's site, but I could find no evidence for this alleged sale of Ajahn Brahma's time.

Apparently, it is for real. I found this page on Dhammaloka.org
I couldn't find anything. and am surprised it isn't on the Dhammasala page!
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Stiphan
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Stiphan » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:30 pm

Ajahn Brahm mentioned this in his last talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU2oKq8X_po" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Cittasanto
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Cittasanto » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:40 pm

Hi Mr Man,
I agree with the rest but would like to add to what you add to your responce to marc108 if you do not mind.
Mr Man wrote:
marc108 wrote:Of course other people are going to try to project their perceptions of what they think a Bhikkhu should or should not be doing...
I don't think it is a case of projecting perceptions.
If a judge, politician, or police officer acted inappropriately for their position and specific duties is it projection for the lay public who are not 100% aware of their rules to critisise?
Mr Man wrote:
marc108 wrote:but really, who are we to tell Ajahn Brahm anything lol.
Why not?
the Laity often are the cause of vinaya rules, and on occasion advised on certain aspects (such as the theft parajika rule) who the hell were they to tell the Buddha anything?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

Gena1480
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Gena1480 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:42 pm

does Ajahn Brahm consent his actions with the Sangha
or he makes decision himself?

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mikenz66
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:52 pm

Can someone explain exactly what their objection to this is? Does it contravene some obscure rule in the Vinaya?

I don't see any logical difference from any Dhamma presentation, where teachings and dana is given freely, but perhaps I'm overlooking something.

:anjali:
Mike

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by LonesomeYogurt » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:57 pm

According to AN 5.177, the selling of human beings is wrong livelihood!

:jumping:
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.

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mikenz66
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:57 pm

"May Master Gotama, together with the community of monks, acquiesce to my offer of tomorrow's meal."

The Blessed One acquiesced with silence.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:anjali:
Mike

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Cittasanto
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Cittasanto » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:02 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Can someone explain exactly what their objection to this is? Does it contravene some obscure rule in the Vinaya?

I don't see any logical difference from any Dhamma presentation, where teachings and dana is given freely, but perhaps I'm overlooking something.

:anjali:
Mike
nothing obscure, and can be found easily.
SN 42.10 Maniculaka Sutta: To Maniculaka wrote:"Now I do say that thatch may be sought for by one needing thatch, wood may be sought for by one needing wood, a cart may be sought for by one needing a cart, a workman may be sought for by one needing a workman, but by no means do I say that money may be consented to or sought for in any way at all."
Nissaggiya Pācittiya: Rules entailing forfeiture and confession wrote:18. Should any bhikkhu accept gold and silver, or have it accepted, or consent to its being deposited (near him), it is to be forfeited and confessed.

19. Should any bhikkhu engage in various types of monetary exchange, it (the income) is to be forfeited and confessed.

20. Should any bhikkhu engage in various types of trade, it (the article obtained) is to be forfeited and confessed.
he is trading himself for money to build.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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tiltbillings
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:06 pm

Cittasanto wrote: he is trading himself for money to build.
Does he benefit from this, does he line his pockets, get a big fancy car, better food, silk robes, a nicer place to live?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Mr Man
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Mr Man » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:15 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Can someone explain exactly what their objection to this is? Does it contravene some obscure rule in the Vinaya?

I don't see any logical difference from any Dhamma presentation, where teachings and dana is given freely, but perhaps I'm overlooking something.
Hi Mike
My objection is that it degrades the symbolism of the mendicant. I also think it trivializes and is overly out of step with the tradition.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Cittasanto » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:23 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: he is trading himself for money to build.
Does he benefit from this, does he line his pockets, get a big fancy car, better food, silk robes, a nicer place to live?
I will point you too the first quote.
it does not matter if he is benefitting in that way. he is allowing and being part of making himself a commodity in trade that is inappropriate.
Ud3.8 pinda sutta wrote:The monk going for alms,
supporting himself and no other:
The devas adore one who is Such
if he's not intent
on fame & praise.
DN2 wrote:"So after some time he abandons his mass of wealth, large or small; leaves his circle of relatives, large or small; shaves off his hair and beard, puts on the ochre robes, and goes forth from the household life into homelessness. Having thus gone forth he lives restrained in body, speech, and mind, content with the simplest food and shelter, delighting in solitude. Then suppose one of your men were to inform you: 'You should know, your majesty, that that man of yours — the farmer, the householder, the taxpayer swelling the royal treasury... has gone forth from the household life into homelessness... content with the simplest food and shelter, delighting in solitude.' Would you, thus informed, say, 'Bring that man back to me. Make him again be a farmer, a householder, a taxpayer swelling the royal treasury!'?"
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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tiltbillings
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:25 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: he is trading himself for money to build.
Does he benefit from this, does he line his pockets, get a big fancy car, better food, silk robes, a nicer place to live?
I will point you too the first quote.
it does not matter if he is benefitting in that way. he is allowing and being part of making himself a commodity in trade that is inappropriate.
Naughty Ajahn Brahm. Literalist Cittasanto.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:30 pm

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