theravada equivalent of koan study?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Gena1480
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Re: theravada equivalent of koan study?

Post by Gena1480 »

both duality and not duality
is a way of expression.
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ground
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Re: theravada equivalent of koan study?

Post by ground »

Gena1480 wrote:and i have no idea what duality and non-duality mean
These terms mean what you cause them to mean.

Therefore all discussions about these terms are ludicrous.

It is like people discussing about a ghost that they have not seen based on individual imagination. :sage:
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ground
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Re: theravada equivalent of koan study?

Post by ground »

LonesomeYogurt wrote: ...

Also refer to this essay by Bhikkhu Bodhi: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_27.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...

The teaching of the Buddha as found in the Pali canon does not endorse a philosophy of non-dualism of any variety, nor, I would add, can a non-dualistic perspective be found lying implicit within the Buddha's discourses. At the same time, however, I would not maintain that the Pali Suttas propose dualism, ...
B. Bodhi may be trying to demonstrate a kind of non-dualism here ...
LonesomeYogurt wrote: ...

Also refer to this essay by Bhikkhu Bodhi: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_27.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
... In contrast to the non-dualistic systems, the Buddha's approach does not aim at the discovery of a unifying principle behind or beneath our experience of the world. ...
...
This is where B. Bodhi demonstrates dualistic intellectualism :sage:
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m0rl0ck
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Re: theravada equivalent of koan study?

Post by m0rl0ck »

LonesomeYogurt wrote: Then please, by all means, correct my statements. It is not helpful to simply say that I am wrong.
I dont have the expertise to correct you. I have spent at least a year doing "mu", have been a somewhat serious student of zen /chan since the early 90's and have been working on chan huatou for the past 4 years. Despite that i dont feel qualified to make the kind of blanket statements you have made and i think that a few months of koan study hardly qualifies you as an expert. Of course its always possible that im just exceptionally slow on the uptake :)
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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Dan74
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Re: theravada equivalent of koan study?

Post by Dan74 »

m0rl0ck wrote:
LonesomeYogurt wrote: Then please, by all means, correct my statements. It is not helpful to simply say that I am wrong.
I dont have the expertise to correct you. I have spent at least a year doing "mu", have been a somewhat serious student of zen /chan since the early 90's and have been working on chan huatou for the past 4 years. Despite that i dont feel qualified to make the kind of blanket statements you have made and i think that a few months of koan study hardly qualifies you as an expert. Of course its always possible that im just exceptionally slow on the uptake :)
Go beginners mind!

But where would the forums be, if beginners mind was really practiced?

Mostly quiet, I guess...
_/|\_
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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: theravada equivalent of koan study?

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

m0rl0ck wrote:I dont have the expertise to correct you. I have spent at least a year doing "mu", have been a somewhat serious student of zen /chan since the early 90's and have been working on chan huatou for the past 4 years. Despite that i dont feel qualified to make the kind of blanket statements you have made and i think that a few months of koan study hardly qualifies you as an expert. Of course its always possible that im just exceptionally slow on the uptake :)
I don't think I'm an expert in any way. I'm just stating what I believe to be the Theravada position of Mahayana concepts of non-duality, based on the suttas and the work of others like Bhikkhu Bodhi and Buddhadasa. I hope I haven't come off as claiming any kind of authority or expertise in the area; if I spoke outside my bounds, I apologize.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
alan
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Re: theravada equivalent of koan study?

Post by alan »

"non-duality" may be the most ridiculous and pointless idea ever presented within a Buddhist context.
Don't waste your time with it.
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ground
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Re: theravada equivalent of koan study?

Post by ground »

alan wrote:"non-duality" may be the most ridiculous and pointless idea ever presented within a Buddhist context.
Don't waste your time with it.
Ideas are just ideas. Human being waste all of their lives with ideas. There is no alternative. Human dilemma. :sage:
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Nyorai
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Re: theravada equivalent of koan study?

Post by Nyorai »

Theravada is foremost to understand the four noble truth and applying several methods like breathing to achieve emptiness. And koan can be applied like breathing and other methods as well. However, for koan in zen, it directly bypasses the study of four noble truth first. Upon attainment, it relies upon enlightened teacher or sutra or sttua to authenticate/verify their attainment. Generally in Theravada, mostly stated in sutta on emptiness is sort of "suppressing" the alaya mind/consciousness into emptiness. It is still the alaya consciousness at work but a purer version of consicousness than all alaya minds.
"When there is no intellect, when there are no ideas, when there is no intellect-consciousness, it is impossible that one will delineate a delineation of contact. When thMadhupindika Sutta: The Ball of Honey
six consciousness - When there is no delineation of thinking, it is impossible that one will delineate a delineation of being assailed by the perceptions & categories of objectification.

"When there is no ear...
"When there is no nose...
"When there is no tongue...
"When there is no body...

ere is no delineation of contact, it is impossible that one will delineate a delineation of feeling. When there is no delineation of feeling, it is impossible that one will delineate a delineation of perception. When there is no delineation of perception, it is impossible that one will delineate a delineation of thinking. When there is no delineation of thinking, it is impossible that one will delineate a delineation of being assailed by the perceptions & categories of objectification.
However, the theravada sutta also revealed the non dualism aspect of Mahayana but in a lesser scale as you need to know that the theravada was taught by Buddha for 12 consecutive years mainly to prepare most theravadists then into mahayana doctrine. And amongst them, they were quite a number had already developed the awareness of mahayana. Below mentioned:
Bāhiya Sutta - "Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."[2]
This is the claim that there is no ultimate difference between samsara and Nirvana, defilement and purity, ignorance and enlightenment. For the Mahayana, the enlightenment which the Buddhist path is designed to awaken consists precisely in the realization of this non-dualistic perspective.

Also refer to this essay by Bhikkhu Bodhi: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... ay_27.html
Upon realization, samsara and Nirvana has no ultimate difference because there is no samsara and nirvana at all, henceforth is known as non-dualism.
:anjali:
ImageTo become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana.
If you light a lamp for somebody, it will also brighten your path. He who experiences the unity of life sees his own Self in all beings, and all beings in his own Self.Image
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tiltbillings
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Re: theravada equivalent of koan study?

Post by tiltbillings »

Nyorai wrote: Generally in Theravada, mostly stated in sutta on emptiness is sort of "suppressing" the alaya mind/consciousness into emptiness. It is still the alaya consciousness at work but a purer version of consicousness than all alaya minds.
Would please expand on that a bit. Not all us here are grounded in Yogachara.

And this really could use some further expansion: "mostly stated in sutta on emptiness is sort of "suppressing" the alaya mind/consciousness into emptiness."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
nibbuti
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Re: theravada equivalent of koan study?

Post by nibbuti »

theravada equivalent of koan study?
Sutta study.

Some koans are meant to get one's mind off the habitual conceptualization but leave it at that perplexed state ('emptied cup').

Some suttas - spoken by the Buddha, the teacher - get one off habitual conceptualization (e.g. MN 1) and go beyond perplexity toward wise attention (e.g. MN 19) and sunnata (MN 121, 122).

However, similar to koan study, it can only be understood and developed through practise and direct experience, rather than blindly accepting as 'my' doctrine.

:anjali:
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Cittasanto
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Re: theravada equivalent of koan study?

Post by Cittasanto »

Try reading this,
http://www.koreanbuddhism.net/hwadu/con ... =37&page=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Be warned this uses Korean and proper spelling/terms what we know as a koan (gong-an) is actually known as Hwadu in Korea (at least but I don't know if the Japanese is different).

The only practices I know of that are similar is the recitation of the term(s) Buddha (Bud-dha) Dhamma (Dham-ma) and Sangha (san-gha) as a form of mantra. the first half on the inhalation and the second half on the exhalation. And recollecting teachings which can be done nowadays by reading a passage of full text & using that teaching as a meditation subject.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Nyorai
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Re: theravada equivalent of koan study?

Post by Nyorai »

Cittasanto wrote:Try reading this,
http://www.koreanbuddhism.net/hwadu/con ... =37&page=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Be warned this uses Korean and proper spelling/terms what we know as a koan (gong-an) is actually known as Hwadu in Korea (at least but I don't know if the Japanese is different).

The only practices I know of that are similar is the recitation of the term(s) Buddha (Bud-dha) Dhamma (Dham-ma) and Sangha (san-gha) as a form of mantra. the first half on the inhalation and the second half on the exhalation. And recollecting teachings which can be done nowadays by reading a passage of full text & using that teaching as a meditation subject.
My apology for mistaken the koan as "who am I" sort of in zen that simultaneously engaging into nirhodha and magga - inquiring of mind but free from demanding as answer. As such, it is not possible for beginner to achieve the state of nibbana through koan as it only specifically in nibbana state - the truth of the cessation of dukkha
in the four noble :

1.The truth of suffering (dukkha)
2.The truth of the cause of suffering (samudaya)
3.The truth of the end of suffering (nirhodha)
4.The truth of the path that frees us from suffering (magga)

For most practitioners including beginners, it still has to develop the mind through dharma lecture surrounding the four noble truth repeatedly and meditation.
:anjali:
ImageTo become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana.
If you light a lamp for somebody, it will also brighten your path. He who experiences the unity of life sees his own Self in all beings, and all beings in his own Self.Image
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Cittasanto
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Re: theravada equivalent of koan study?

Post by Cittasanto »

I do not know what you think I was replying to but it was to the OP.
Nyorai wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Try reading this,
http://www.koreanbuddhism.net/hwadu/con ... =37&page=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Be warned this uses Korean and proper spelling/terms what we know as a koan (gong-an) is actually known as Hwadu in Korea (at least but I don't know if the Japanese is different).

The only practices I know of that are similar is the recitation of the term(s) Buddha (Bud-dha) Dhamma (Dham-ma) and Sangha (san-gha) as a form of mantra. the first half on the inhalation and the second half on the exhalation. And recollecting teachings which can be done nowadays by reading a passage of full text & using that teaching as a meditation subject.
My apology for mistaken the koan as "who am I" sort of in zen that simultaneously engaging into nirhodha and magga - inquiring of mind but free from demanding as answer. As such, it is not possible for beginner to achieve the state of nibbana through koan as it only specifically in nibbana state - the truth of the cessation of dukkha
in the four noble :

1.The truth of suffering (dukkha)
2.The truth of the cause of suffering (samudaya)
3.The truth of the end of suffering (nirhodha)
4.The truth of the path that frees us from suffering (magga)

For most practitioners including beginners, it still has to develop the mind through dharma lecture surrounding the four noble truth repeatedly and meditation.
:anjali:
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
alan...
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Re: theravada equivalent of koan study?

Post by alan... »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:If this topic interests you, Alan, try reading up on papañca, which seems to be the Pali term that describes what you're talking about the best. Thanissaro talks about it in the introduction to his translation of the Madhupindika Sutta, which is one of my favorite suttas ever.
awesome. thank you!
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