REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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danieLion
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by danieLion » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:50 pm

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Dmytro
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by Dmytro » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:51 pm

Hi Mr Man,

First, you ask personal questions, and then you insinuate that my words are pure speculation.
Why asking then?

This reminds me of scientism trick - first to limit verification to the physical phenomena, and then outlaw any subjective verification, and hence all subjective phenomena. In this way, such "scientists" are asking questions about subjective phenomena without really asking them - they already "know" the answer, - subjective phenomena "don't exist". There's nothing physical to prove that you have anything in the inner world, - so there's nothing worthwhile in your inner world. All that matters is your brain chemistry.

Hopefully the science will move into the methods of subjective verification, which will help to obtain deeper insight into such phenomena as past lives, etc. It's quite doable.

danieLion
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by danieLion » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:53 pm

manas wrote:
...
"When this was said, Ajita Kesakambalin said to me, 'Great king, there is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly and practicing rightly, proclaim this world and the next after having directly known and realized it for themselves. A person is a composite of four primary elements. At death, the earth (in the body) returns to and merges with the (external) earth-substance. The fire returns to and merges with the external fire-substance. The liquid returns to and merges with the external liquid-substance. The wind returns to and merges with the external wind-substance. The sense-faculties scatter into space. Four men, with the bier as the fifth, carry the corpse. Its eulogies are sounded only as far as the charnel ground. The bones turn pigeon-colored. The offerings end in ashes. Generosity is taught by idiots. The words of those who speak of existence after death are false, empty chatter. With the break-up of the body, the wise and the foolish alike are annihilated, destroyed. They do not exist after death.'
...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What to speak of the Buddha, even King Ajatasattu rejected annihilationism. Yet nowadays, going by the above definition, a lot of people do hold this view.

:anjali:
I'm neither a materialist nor an annihilationist (or eternalist).
How does this relate to the necessity/contingency and orginalism questions of the OP and subsequent discussions?

danieLion
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by danieLion » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:56 pm

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beeblebrox
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by beeblebrox » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:58 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
beeblebrox wrote:Why believe in something (existence) when there's no experience of it (non-existence)?
If direct perception is the only reliable criterion, then why believe that arahanthood is possible?...
Hi Nana,

People only do the practice (or at least seriously) when they've encountered someone or something that they thought was noble. This is a fact. That is why it's called the Triple Gem.

How could the refuge be real if it was put on something that was never seen?
Ñāṇa wrote:
beeblebrox wrote:Also, what exactly is "spontaneously reborn beings"?
See Ven. Dhammanando's post here.
From that post:
1. Although 'spontaneously born' is the usual meaning of opapaatika, in the context of mundane right view the commentaries understand it to denote rebirth in general, no matter which of the four modes of generation is involved.
I think that's interesting. How could it be spontaneous if it was reborn?
beeblebrox wrote:What are the pali words for these, especially for "reborn"?
The most common terms are upapatti (rebirth) and punabbhava (renewed existence).
I think it's something worth investigating... check out this thread, for example.

:anjali:
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danieLion
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by danieLion » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:59 pm

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danieLion
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by danieLion » Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:00 pm

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danieLion
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by danieLion » Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:10 pm

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danieLion
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by danieLion » Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:15 pm

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Mr Man
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by Mr Man » Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:17 pm

Dmytro wrote:Hi Mr Man,

First, you ask personal questions, and then you insinuate that my words are pure speculation.
Why asking then?
Hi Dmytro
I asked them because I was hoping you would answer and we could take it from there. If you say "It's not so difficult to get in touch with past lives" surely my question is fair?
If you assert "In ancient times, even more people than today, were simply able to remember past lives." I am interested as to how you came to that conclusion. Or if you say "many children" I think it is fair to question what many would mean in a population of say 1.2 Billion
Dmytro wrote:
This reminds me of scientism trick - first to limit verification to the physical phenomena, and then outlaw any subjective verification, and hence all subjective phenomena. In this way, such "scientists" are asking questions about subjective phenomena without really asking them - they already "know" the answer, - subjective phenomena "don't exist". There's nothing physical to prove that you have anything in the inner world, - so there's nothing worthwhile in your inner world. All that matters is your brain chemistry.

Hopefully the science will move into the methods of subjective verification, which will help to obtain deeper insight into such phenomena as past lives, etc. It's quite doable.
Are you writing me off here?

danieLion
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by danieLion » Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:27 pm

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danieLion
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by danieLion » Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:35 pm

beeblebrox wrote: Hi Nana,

People only do the practice (or at least seriously) when they've encountered someone or something that they thought was noble. This is a fact. That is why it's called the Triple Gem.

How could the refuge be real if it was put on something that was never seen?
The texts do not present a consistent meaning of refuge: one side there's refuge in the Triple Gem; on the other, we find the Buddha suggesting that self refuge trumps other kinds of refuge.

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danieLion
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by danieLion » Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:46 pm

TO CLARIFY:

When I ask, "How does this relate to the necessity/contingency and orginalism questions of the OP and subsequent discussions?" I am not necessarily saying it doesn't. I'm asking you to either demonstrate how it does or acknowledge it doesn't. If you can explicate how it's relevant to the OP with a cogent and persuasive response, I'm likely to leave it at that. If you cannot, I will label it Off Topic. If you admit it's Off Topic, I'll leave it at that.

MODERATORS: I could use your input here. While I my very self am engaging in and enjoying the rebirth only portions of this thread, they appear Off Topic to me and I'd like them extracted and merged with the Great Rebirth Debate Thread. I understand it might take some time and will also defer to you if you think they're not Off Topic (presuming I find your reasons valid).
:anjali:

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beeblebrox
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by beeblebrox » Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:47 pm

danieLion wrote: How does any of this relate to the necessity/contingency and orginalism questions of the OP and subsequent discussions?
Hi Daniel,

I apologize if I was not skillful enough not to reply. At least I gave a thread, hopefully people will go over there.

:anjali:
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danieLion
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by danieLion » Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:50 pm

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