REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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manas
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by manas » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:57 pm

...
"When this was said, Ajita Kesakambalin said to me, 'Great king, there is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly and practicing rightly, proclaim this world and the next after having directly known and realized it for themselves. A person is a composite of four primary elements. At death, the earth (in the body) returns to and merges with the (external) earth-substance. The fire returns to and merges with the external fire-substance. The liquid returns to and merges with the external liquid-substance. The wind returns to and merges with the external wind-substance. The sense-faculties scatter into space. Four men, with the bier as the fifth, carry the corpse. Its eulogies are sounded only as far as the charnel ground. The bones turn pigeon-colored. The offerings end in ashes. Generosity is taught by idiots. The words of those who speak of existence after death are false, empty chatter. With the break-up of the body, the wise and the foolish alike are annihilated, destroyed. They do not exist after death.'
...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What to speak of the Buddha, even King Ajatasattu rejected annihilationism. Yet nowadays, going by the above definition, a lot of people do hold this view.

:anjali:
Drinking the nourishment,
the flavor,
of seclusion & calm,
one is freed from evil, devoid
of distress,
refreshed with the nourishment
of rapture in the Dhamma.

- Dhp 205

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beeblebrox
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by beeblebrox » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:13 pm

manas wrote:
...
"When this was said, Ajita Kesakambalin said to me, 'Great king, there is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly and practicing rightly, proclaim this world and the next after having directly known and realized it for themselves. A person is a composite of four primary elements. At death, the earth (in the body) returns to and merges with the (external) earth-substance. The fire returns to and merges with the external fire-substance. The liquid returns to and merges with the external liquid-substance. The wind returns to and merges with the external wind-substance. The sense-faculties scatter into space. Four men, with the bier as the fifth, carry the corpse. Its eulogies are sounded only as far as the charnel ground. The bones turn pigeon-colored. The offerings end in ashes. Generosity is taught by idiots. The words of those who speak of existence after death are false, empty chatter. With the break-up of the body, the wise and the foolish alike are annihilated, destroyed. They do not exist after death.'
...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What to speak of the Buddha, even King Ajatasattu rejected annihilationism. Yet nowadays, going by the above definition, a lot of people do hold this view.
Hi Mana,

When someone dies, does that person stop existing? I don't think so... and it doesn't imply rebirth.

Does the world stop existing? Of course not.

Will that person continue to have an effect on the world, or not? I think definitely.

Also, what exactly is "spontaneously reborn beings"? What are the pali words for these, especially for "reborn"?

:anjali:

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daverupa
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by daverupa » Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:31 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:No, it's explicitly stated in the suttas.
It's waveringly stated in the suttas, with neither belief in nor knowledge of it ever given as a necessary condition for meditation, per the question in the OP.

This really shouldn't devolve into another rebirth thread, should it?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

Nyana
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by Nyana » Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:38 pm

beeblebrox wrote:Why believe in something (existence) when there's no experience of it (non-existence)?
If direct perception is the only reliable criterion, then why believe that arahanthood is possible?...
beeblebrox wrote:Also, what exactly is "spontaneously reborn beings"?
See Ven. Dhammanando's post here.
beeblebrox wrote:What are the pali words for these, especially for "reborn"?
The most common terms are upapatti (rebirth) and punabbhava (renewed existence).

Nyana
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by Nyana » Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:40 pm

daverupa wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:No, it's explicitly stated in the suttas.
It's waveringly stated in the suttas....
It's explicitly asserted.

Nyana
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by Nyana » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:11 pm

danieLion wrote:
daverupa wrote:And rebirth has nothing to do with the practice, as Pāṭaliya was instructed.
Thank you for reminding me of this. The Pataliya Sutta is found in the Samyutta Nikaya 42.13, where the Buddha tells Pataliya the Headman not worry about rebirth becuase the law of karma is not always visible here and now. The Buddha instead instructs him to focus on "abandoning" which is comprised of cultivating sila and sati, and developing samadhi.
In SN 42.13 rebirth is still to be included as a part of the disciple's contemplation:
  • He reflects thus, '... since I am restrained in body, speech, and mind, and since, with the breakup of the body, after death, I shall be reborn in a good destination, in a heavenly world.' [As he reflects thus] gladness is born. When one is gladdened, rapture is born. When the mind is elated by rapture the body becomes tranquil. One tranquil in body experiences happiness. The mind of one who is happy becomes concentrated.
If one were to take SN 42.13 as a guide for practice, then this would include frequently reflecting on rebirth as a part of one's dhammasamādhi.

danieLion
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by danieLion » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:20 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
Viscid wrote:
danieLion wrote:Does "name-dropping" really bother you? If so, why?
Well, on a forum such as this one we have to assume that the people we're speaking with haven't read the same material we have, especially when that material is obscure. If you're name-dropping, you're saying "you won't understand what I am trying to explain unless you are as familiar with these sources as I am" which excludes most people from the discussion. It also just looks like you're trying to impress others with how well-read you are.
or providing the sources so that others can look more closely at the source and come to a conclusion based on the same information.
Nice paraphrase. Thanks. :anjali:

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robertk
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by robertk » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:25 pm

if i remember correctly the buddha explains to Pataliya that those who commit illdeeds are reborn in woeful planes and even in hell.

danieLion
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by danieLion » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:28 pm

...delete...
Last edited by danieLion on Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Mr Man
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by Mr Man » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:35 pm

danieLion wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
Viscid wrote:
Well, on a forum such as this one we have to assume that the people we're speaking with haven't read the same material we have, especially when that material is obscure. If you're name-dropping, you're saying "you won't understand what I am trying to explain unless you are as familiar with these sources as I am" which excludes most people from the discussion. It also just looks like you're trying to impress others with how well-read you are.
or providing the sources so that others can look more closely at the source and come to a conclusion based on the same information.
Nice paraphrase. Thanks. :anjali:
I think the meaning of "paraphrase" must have changed. :smile:

danieLion
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by danieLion » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:37 pm

...delete...
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danieLion
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by danieLion » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:41 pm

...delete...
Last edited by danieLion on Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

danieLion
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by danieLion » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:42 pm

...delete...
Last edited by danieLion on Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

danieLion
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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by danieLion » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:45 pm

Mr Man wrote:I think the meaning of "paraphrase" must have changed. :smile:
I meant Cittsanto's paraphrase of my reply to the above, not his parphrase of the above.

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Re: REAL Meditation: The Originalist Thesis

Post by danieLion » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:46 pm

daverupa wrote: :zzz:

There's a way to abandon these states of perplexity...
Indeed. I'm working toward that. Thanks again for the reminder.

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