Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

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kirk5a
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Post by kirk5a » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:01 pm

Let's consider an example, see if you can spot the flaw in the logic:

Dependent upon wood, air, and heat, a log is on fire. If the fire ceases, the cessation of the aforementioned things should have taken place.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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acinteyyo
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Post by acinteyyo » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:24 pm

kirk5a wrote:Let's consider an example, see if you can spot the flaw in the logic:

Dependent upon wood, air, and heat, a log is on fire. If the fire ceases, the cessation of the aforementioned things should have taken place.
I guess you are referring to this:
acinteyyo wrote:Well, an enlightened being is free from craving and therefore the cessation of the mentioned things above should have taken place which leads to the assumption that the cessation of old kamma had also taken place.
You're example does not correspond to my sentence above, if this was your intention.
The logical sentence is: "Dependent of x there is y, with the cessation of x there comes the cessation of y" i.e. Dependent of craving there is the world, with the cessation of craving comes the cessation of the world. (kamma being part of the world)
But the logic of your example is: "Dependent upon x (wood,air&heat), y is on fire. If the fire ceases, the cessation of the aforementioned things (x maybe y too) should have taken place. The only logical connection here is x and fire of y. If there is no fire there is probably no x (or not the right proportion of x). But it doesn't tell us anything about the origination of y neither of its cessation.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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kirk5a
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Post by kirk5a » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:12 am

MN140 makes it quite clear that the final cessation of "old kamma" does not occur until the death of an arahant.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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retrofuturist
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:17 am

Greetings,
kirk5a wrote:MN140 makes it quite clear that the final cessation of "old kamma" does not occur until the death of an arahant.
You say that MN 140 does this but I could find no reference to "old kamma" in this translation...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... so for now at least, it's not 'quite clear'.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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kirk5a
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Post by kirk5a » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:20 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
kirk5a wrote:MN140 makes it quite clear that the final cessation of "old kamma" does not occur until the death of an arahant.
You say that MN 140 does this but I could find no reference to "old kamma" in this translation...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... so for now at least, it's not 'quite clear'.
Ok, one step, by definition:
"Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
One discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:33 am

Greetings Kirk,

I can see how you got from A to B, but I wouldn't regard that which represents "life" and that which is "fabricated and willed" as synonymous... especially in the context of an arahant.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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kirk5a
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Post by kirk5a » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:55 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Kirk,

I can see how you got from A to B, but I wouldn't regard that which represents "life" and that which is "fabricated and willed" as synonymous... especially in the context of an arahant.
Is something riding on those being synonymous? I don't see what your point is.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:43 am

Greetings Kirk,

The SN 35.145 extract on old kamma sounds phenomenlogical in intent (i.e. kaya-sankhara, mano-sankhara), whereas the MN 140 extract on death sounds ontological in intent.

Personally wouldn't use an ontological statement as the basis for affirming or rejecting a phenomenological statement. That's all.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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kirk5a
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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Post by kirk5a » Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:17 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Kirk,

The SN 35.145 extract on old kamma sounds phenomenlogical in intent (i.e. kaya-sankhara, mano-sankhara), whereas the MN 140 extract on death sounds ontological in intent.

Personally wouldn't use an ontological statement as the basis for affirming or rejecting a phenomenological statement. That's all.
Is there any guidance from the suttas on differentiating between "phenomenological statements" and "ontological statements"?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Do enlightened people experience kamma vipaka

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:39 am

Greetings Kirk,
kirk5a wrote:Is there any guidance from the suttas on differentiating between "phenomenological statements" and "ontological statements"?
It's not a classification scheme called out in the suttas, so no.... but we do often see the Buddha reframing certain prevailing concepts (e.g. loka, sabba) from ontological to phenomenological perspectives, so it's not without precedent.

The fact something like "old kamma" is formed (sankhata) suggests to me it is the product of avijja (i.e. a product of dependent origination), and thus phenomenological. I'm not here to argue the point, just to explain how I see it.... you may take it or leave it as you see fit.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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