Patriotism

[Ceisiwr]

If you take fellow man to mean anyone who is human then there are no divisions

Only if one regards "fellow man" in a very specific way. Otherwise, certainly the idea of "fellow man" implies a division between "self" and "other." I don't see how you can have a "fellow man" in the conventional sense without having a division between "self" and "other." And you're the one who raised the issue of sakkāya-diṭṭhi. Why wouldn't sakkāya-diṭṭhi apply to the notion of "self" as separate from "fellow man" for some people?

How can you have boundless love for all beings without self and other? the answer is with wisdom

the point i was trying to make however is that respect for every human because they are human is better than patriotism IMO. Of course people have this as well as patriotism but i would argue its better to just have the respect for man and leave out the love of country


Metta

[mindfullmom]

I agree with Rhino. We are all seeking certainity and security in the midst of this impermance. I'm from the US and I can tell you that the grassroots campaigns that are now taking over the country here are based in a sort of fear that our leadership is taking the country in the wrong direction. Grassroots groups are standing up and attempting to defend the principles of life, liberty and freedom that this country was built upon and have kept it, for the most part, prosperous for several hundred years now. They are wanting to hold on to (cling) to this wonderful way of life we have built. America started as a 'great experiment" because it was the first country based on freedom of the people and was hoped to be a model for the world to follow, to show all people everywhere that our form of government can work toward lifting all beings out of tyranny.

That being said, I believe true freedom can only come from within, but it does help to have a country operate in a way that allows for the cultivation of that internal freedom. For me, patriotism is a tough thing, because it does create the thought of us vs them but I try to see it differently. I see it as bringing my awareness and attention to the issues of our collective karma here in the US and hope that by working toward creating the conditions for freedom here, it can spill over and benefit all beings everywhere. I believe I am "patriotic" because I support, honor and respect the people of the US but I also understand that all people in all countries want the same things, freedom, happiness, peace, love.

[Annapurna]

I'm from the US and I can tell you that the grassroots campaigns that are now taking over the country here are based in a sort of fear that our leadership is taking the country in the wrong direction.

Sure, with that president.... Imagine that 50 years ago...would have been the end of the world to the whites, huh? "Oh, he's taking us in the wrong direction..."

Actually, it would have been impossible, an Afro American leader.

Amazing development.

I believe I am "patriotic" because I support, honor and respect the people of the US but I also understand that all people in all countries want the same things, freedom, happiness, peace, love.

You say you understand they want the same, but would you grant them the same? Could you say that you support, honor and respect the people from other nations just as much, or does that notion feel a bit creepy? Just curious. No attack.

Metta,

Annapurna

[mindfullmom]

[Sure, with that president.... Imagine that 50 years ago...would have been the end of the world to the whites, huh? "Oh, he's taking us in the wrong direction..."

Actually, it would have been impossible, an Afro American leader.

Amazing development.
/quote]

I'm not really sure what you mean. Could you elaborate?

You say you understand they want the same, but would you grant them the same? Could you say that you support, honor and respect the people from other nations just as much, or does that notion feel a bit creepy? Just curious. No attack.

Metta,

I apologize if I was unclear. When I said I support, honor and respect the people of the US and understand people in other countries want the same things, I meant that to me there is no difference between an American and people of any other nationality. Nationalistic descriptions are just words used in a conventional sense so that we may understand one another but all beings are the same for me no matter where we live. That is why the word "patriot" is difficult for me. It's like a paradox. My intention is not to favor one group over another but to recognize all as separate entities in a conventional sense within the same "one". For me, we may seem separate but we are not. Does that make sense?

No, it does not feel creepy for me to support, honor and respect anyone. Could you give me your perspective

[Macavity]

Greetings

Does anyone here think patriotism in any form can have a place as we try to apply the Buddhadhamma in our real lives?

No since patriotism is sakkāya-diṭṭhi, the first fetter

Which of the 20 kinds of sakkayaditthi does love of one's country fall under?

None of them, so far as I can tell.

Since loving one's country is a kind of passion or an attachment, whereas sakkayaditthi is a distortion of cognition at the root epistemic level, I don't believe there is even any necessary connection between them, let alone the two things being identical. One might be subject to sakkayaditthi and indifferent to one's country, or one might (as a stream-winner) be free of sakkayaditthi and yet still attached to one's country, perhaps simply due to an habitual fondness for what's familiar.
Regards,
Ciarán

[Ceisiwr]

Greetings

Does anyone here think patriotism in any form can have a place as we try to apply the Buddhadhamma in our real lives?

No since patriotism is sakkāya-diṭṭhi, the first fetter

Which of the 20 kinds of sakkayaditthi does love of one's country fall under?

None of them, so far as I can tell.

Since loving one's country is a kind of passion or an attachment, whereas sakkayaditthi is a distortion of cognition at the root epistemic level, I don't believe there is even any necessary connection between them, let alone the two things being identical. One might be subject to sakkayaditthi and indifferent to one's country, or one might (as a stream-winner) be free of sakkayaditthi and yet still attached to one's country, perhaps simply due to an habitual fondness for what's familiar.
Regards,
Ciarán

Patriotism is, as you said, an attachment. Attachments lead to sakkayaditthi or re-inforce it


If one is a stream-winner then one is free of sakkayaditthi yet still has subtle attachments that lead to conceit


Perhaps however, on reflection, patriotism would go more with māno than sakkayaditthi

Either way its something that doesnt help growth in Dhamma


metta

[Annapurna]

[Sure, with that president.... Imagine that 50 years ago...would have been the end of the world to the whites, huh? "Oh, he's taking us in the wrong direction..."

Actually, it would have been impossible, an Afro American leader.

Amazing development.
/quote]

I'm not really sure what you mean. Could you elaborate?

You say you understand they want the same, but would you grant them the same? Could you say that you support, honor and respect the people from other nations just as much, or does that notion feel a bit creepy? Just curious. No attack.

Metta,

I apologize if I was unclear. When I said I support, honor and respect the people of the US and understand people in other countries want the same things, I meant that to me there is no difference between an American and people of any other nationality. Nationalistic descriptions are just words used in a conventional sense so that we may understand one another but all beings are the same for me no matter where we live. That is why the word "patriot" is difficult for me. It's like a paradox. My intention is not to favor one group over another but to recognize all as separate entities in a conventional sense within the same "one". For me, we may seem separate but we are not. Does that make sense?

No, it does not feel creepy for me to support, honor and respect anyone. Could you give me your perspective

Thank you, mindfulmom.

I was referring to President Obama. I understood your post in this way, that there is a movement that thinks: "He is taking us into the wrong direction....".

Perhaps a misunderstanding....

all beings are the same for me no matter where we live. That is why the word "patriot" is difficult for me. It's like a paradox. My intention is not to favor one group over another but to recognize all as separate entities in a conventional sense within the same "one". For me, we may seem separate but we are not. Does that make sense?

No, it does not feel creepy for me to support, honor and respect anyone. Could you give me your perspective

Yes.sure. I feel the same way. I'm curious to meet people from other nations and religions.

I'm happy when I see that we get along even though we're coming from different parts of the world and backgrounds.

That is a great experience.



Metta,

Annapurna