The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2802
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:30 pm

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The problem is, as we have seen, the particulat text in question is not saying what you are suggesting it is saying.
I think the crux of the matter is whether a puthujjana can properly attend to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta. I say he can't, that the tilakkhana is beyond his ken.
there are two type of putthujjana. the fully ignorant one and the one who is beginning to study and see the way, who is starting to understand the agggregates , the ayatanas, conditionality. this latter one may eventually discern nama and rupa and subsequently the tilakkhana.

pulga
Posts: 1319
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:13 pm

robertk wrote:there are two type of putthujjana. the fully ignorant one and the one who is beginning to study and see the way, who is starting to understand the agggregates , the ayatanas, conditionality. this latter one may eventually discern nama and rupa and subsequently the tilakkhana.
I take it your cat is a fully ignorant one.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:58 pm

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The problem is, as we have seen, the particulat text in question is not saying what you are suggesting it is saying.
I think the crux of the matter is whether a puthujjana can properly attend to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta. I say he can't, that the tilakkhana is beyond his ken.
It depends upon what you mean by "properly attend[ing] to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta." Obviously one can have yoniso manasikara, but not yet attain to ariya status.

Again, the question: Was the bodhisatta ariya befor his awakening?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

pulga
Posts: 1319
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:45 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Again, the question: Was the bodhisatta ariya befor his awakening?
We've already discussed the Vipassísutta. As I said, I'm inclined to follow the tradition in interpreting yoniso manasikara when used as such.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:51 pm

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Again, the question: Was the bodhisatta ariya befor his awakening?
We've already discussed the Vipassísutta. As I said, I'm inclined to follow the tradition in interpreting yoniso manasikara when used as such.
You are not answering the question, which is relevant to the issue of yoniso manasikara. And as for the "tradition," we have seen, via Ven Dhammanando's discussion of what the commentaries say, that your intial take on what was said was wrong.

And you have not addressed this point: "It depends upon what you mean by "properly attend[ing] to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta." Obviously one can have yoniso manasikara, but not yet attain to ariya status," as the sutta quoted above clearly shows.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

pulga
Posts: 1319
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:07 pm

tiltbillings wrote: Ven Dhammanando's discussion of what the commentaries say, that your intial take on what was said was wrong.
In what way?
tiltbillings wrote: And you have not addressed this point: "It depends upon what you mean by "properly attend[ing] to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta."
And how do you mean it? How is it that a puthujjana can properly attend to the pancupandanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta short of understanding them?

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:16 am

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Ven Dhammanando's discussion of what the commentaries say, that your initial take on what was said was wrong.
In what way?
You: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p233393" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ven Dhammanando: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 00#p233469" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 00#p233471" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and add to that the suttas I quoted.


tiltbillings wrote: And you have not addressed this point: "It depends upon what you mean by "properly attend[ing] to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta."
And how do you mean it? How is it that a puthujjana can properly attend to the pancupandanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta short of understanding them?
You made a statement and were asked about what you meant by it, so before I address your questions, you can please address mine.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

pulga
Posts: 1319
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:46 am

tiltbillings wrote:You made a statement and were asked about what you meant by it, so before I address your questions, you can please address mine.
I really haven't gone through all the various texts and thought about the significance of yoniso manasikara enough to have any definite opinion about it. I don't find your examples definitive in coming to any conclusion. If there is some grand insight that you have contigent upon a mundane interpretation of the term, then please do share it forthrightly, and I'll give it some thought.

pulga
Posts: 1319
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:37 pm

Greetings Bhante,
Dhammanando wrote:In the general definition there's no limiting of yoniso mansikāra to ariyans.
Tattha yoniso manasikāro nāma upāyamanasikāro pathamanasikāro, aniccādīsu aniccanti ādinā eva nayena saccānulomikena vā cittassa āvaṭṭanā anvāvaṭṭanā ābhogo samannāhāro manasikāro, ayaṃ vuccati yoniso manasikāroti.
I'm not much into the Commentaries, so please correct me if I'm mistaken, but a lot of this claim hinges on how one understands saccanulomika. From what I've gathered it does seem to convey a conformity with the truth, which -- at least according to the tradition from which it is derived -- is no mere mundane truth of the unenlightened. From an Abhidhammic website I came across the following:
The Co. mentions under purity of view saccaanulomika~naa.na, conformity knowledge, and this is insight knowledge in conformity with the Truth, or adaptation knowledge. It is pa~n~naa that penetrates one of the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha or anattaa. It surely leads to nibbaana, the subco. adds. It is followed by Path-consciousness and Fruition.
This would seem to have some significance on how some interpret the Sabbásavasutta. But I'm not here to paint anyone into a corner, or to make anyone lose face. The whole matter of yoniso manasikara is something I"ve just begun to delve into, and unfortunately there seems to be more in play in its interpretation than the mere purity of an understanding the Dhamma.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:31 pm

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You made a statement and were asked about what you meant by it, so before I address your questions, you can please address mine.
I really haven't gone through all the various texts and thought about the significance of yoniso manasikara enough to have any definite opinion about it.
It certainly looks like you expressed a definite opinion about yoniso manasikara being applicable only to ariya.
I don't find your examples definitive in coming to any conclusion. If there is some grand insight that you have contigent upon a mundane interpretation of the term, then please do share it forthrightly, and I'll give it some thought.
The examples I gave certainly point to, as Ven Dhammanando states:

'If it is merely a possibility that one attending appropriately may realize the fruit of stream-entry, then there is also a possibility that he may not. And all those who do not would count as instances of puthujjanas possessed of yoniso manasikāra. Hence yoniso manasikāra may be present in a puthujjana. . . . The commentary to this sutta defines the term twice, once giving the stock commentarial definition (the paragraph beginning: "tattha _yoniso manasikāro_ nāma upāyamanasikāro...") and once a context-specific one (notice the limiting adverb "ettha", "here"). It is only in the latter that sotāpattimagga is alluded to. In the general definition there's no limiting of yoniso mansikāra to ariyans,'

which neatly contradicts your claim that yoniso manasikara is apllicable only to ariya. Essentially the argument you made for the ariya only interpretation of yoniso manasikara has been shown via the commentaries and the suttas to be at best not well grounded.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 3476
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Alex123 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:47 pm

Interesting thing is that one can possess right view and still go to hell:
(iv) "But here some person abstains from killing living beings... and has right view. On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the states of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell. MN136
So it seems that even if one possesses right view, one doesn't have to be an ariyan.


78. Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of wealth is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable. AN1:8:78
Wisdom can decrease.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

pulga
Posts: 1319
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga » Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:31 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
'If it is merely a possibility that one attending appropriately may realize the fruit of stream-entry, then there is also a possibility that he may not. And all those who do not would count as instances of puthujjanas possessed of yoniso manasikāra. Hence yoniso manasikāra may be present in a puthujjana. . . . The commentary to this sutta defines the term twice, once giving the stock commentarial definition (the paragraph beginning: "tattha _yoniso manasikāro_ nāma upāyamanasikāro...") and once a context-specific one (notice the limiting adverb "ettha", "here"). It is only in the latter that sotāpattimagga is alluded to. In the general definition there's no limiting of yoniso mansikāra to ariyans,'

which neatly contradicts your claim that yoniso manasikara is apllicable only to ariya. Essentially the argument you made for the ariya only interpretation of yoniso manasikara has been shown via the commentaries and the suttas to be at best not well grounded.
I think Ven. Dhammanando may be mistaken in his interpretation of the commentarial gloss here. As for the Silavant Sutta, as I've already intimated, I'm somewhat noncommittal: it appears aberrant -- like a number of the other Suttas you've sited -- and in contradiction to other more established Suttas in the Canon. The tendency that some have to clinging to it only reflects the tenuous nature of the view they're trying to hold.

But as I've said, I'm open to a change of opinion. Just from my own reading of the Suttas I've always had the impression that there is an ariyan quality about the term, and I can understand how the tradition came to interpret it as such. It would be interesting to learn more about why Ven. Bodhi rejects the tradition here, and to gather a more compeling reason to support your view.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:07 pm

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
'If it is merely a possibility that one attending appropriately may realize the fruit of stream-entry, then there is also a possibility that he may not. And all those who do not would count as instances of puthujjanas possessed of yoniso manasikāra. Hence yoniso manasikāra may be present in a puthujjana. . . . The commentary to this sutta defines the term twice, once giving the stock commentarial definition (the paragraph beginning: "tattha _yoniso manasikāro_ nāma upāyamanasikāro...") and once a context-specific one (notice the limiting adverb "ettha", "here"). It is only in the latter that sotāpattimagga is alluded to. In the general definition there's no limiting of yoniso mansikāra to ariyans,'

which neatly contradicts your claim that yoniso manasikara is applicable only to ariya. Essentially the argument you made for the ariya only interpretation of yoniso manasikara has been shown via the commentaries and the suttas to be at best not well grounded.
I think Ven. Dhammanando may be mistaken in his interpretation of the commentarial gloss here.
Do you read the extremely difficult commentarial Pali? Ven Dhammanando, who does, might, indeed, be wrong, but given that he is highly learned in this, more so than anyone else I have seen on this forum, I rather doubt that he is wrong, and merely stating that he might be wrong is not an argument.
As for the Silavant Sutta, as I've already intimated, I'm somewhat noncommittal: it appears aberrant -- like a number of the other Suttas you've sited -- and in contradiction to other more established Suttas in the Canon.
Ah, the it-does-not-agree-with-my-point-of-view,-so-that-sutta-you-just-quoted-can-be-dismissed-as-aberrant argument, which suggests that you, in fact, have no argument. Interestingly, you have not referenced any other "established suttas" other than Vipassi, and even that does not support your position. The suttas I quoted, and I certainly could quote any number of others, are as established as any other sutta in the Nikayas.
But as I've said, I'm open to a change of opinion. Just from my own reading of the Suttas I've always had the impression that there is an ariyan quality about the term, and I can understand how the tradition came to interpret it as such.
The problem for you here is that Ven Dhammanando has put into context what the tradition -- via the commentary you referenced -- has said, which contradicts your point of view.
It would be interesting to learn more about why Ven. Bodhi rejects the tradition here, and to gather a more compeling reason to support your view.
One comment in the commentaries is not the whole of the tradition, and Ven Dhammanando already addressed that point.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 3476
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Alex123 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:08 pm

pulga wrote: I've always had the impression that there is an ariyan quality about the term, and I can understand how the tradition came to interpret it as such. It would be interesting to learn more about why Ven. Bodhi rejects the tradition here, and to gather a more compeling reason to support your view.
Is right view (sammādiṭṭhi) always supramundane?
Is wisdom (paññā) always supramundane?

If not, then why can't yonisomanasikāro be mundane (at least in the beginning)?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

pulga
Posts: 1319
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:39 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Do you read the extremely difficult commentarial Pali? Ven Dhammanando, who does, might, indeed, be wrong, but given that he is highly learned in this, more so than anyone else I have seen on this forum, I rather doubt that he is wrong, and merely stating that he might be wrong is not an argument.
Hopefully I'll get a chance to learn more from him later.
tiltbillings wrote:Ah, the it-does-not-agree-with-my-point-of-view,-so-that-sutta-you-just-quoted-can-be-dismissed-as-aberrant argument, which suggests that you, in fact, have no argument.
Does such an assessment apply to Ven. Analayo's critique of the Mahacattarisaka Sutta?
tiltbillings wrote:One comment in the commentaries is not the whole of the tradition.
Note that I said "here", i.e. with regards to yoniso manasikara.

One final note. You're much too hostile to have any satisfying exchange with. It may be a part of your personality and you may have no control over it, but please excuse me if I'm disinclined to respond to you. Feel free of course to respond to any of my posts.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 104 guests