The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

dhamma follower wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
  • This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
Fortunately the Buddha does not agree with your passive approach to awakening:
  • Dhammapada: 23. The wise ones, ever meditative and steadfastly persevering, alone experience Nibbana, the incomparable freedom from bondage.
You have quoted many of the Buddha's words exhorting people to be steadfast in their quest for deliverance.
It is far more than being steadfast in what the Buddha was saying. He was clearly pointing to our actions, our choices, as being of significance in our putting his teachings into practice.
However, when the Buddha said things like this, IMO, it doesn't mean that now it is volition and effort rather than understanding which lead the path.
You opinion simply ignores what the Buddha clearly said: This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38. Understanding is grounded in our actions. Our actions/kamma express and cultivate our understanding.
His words are like reminder which condition a sense of urgency, which can condition other moments of sati-sampajana.
Why do we need a sense of urgency if there is, according to you, nothing we can actually do to actualize the Buddha's teachings?
All his teachings must be in conformity with each other.
Following your point of view, there is no conformity in the Buddha's teachings.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
pulga
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga »

tiltbillings wrote:The problem is, however, that you still have not effectively countered Ven Bodhi's educated demurral, or the other sutta statements that do not support your position.
Apart from his brief comment in his footnote I have never seen anything written by Ven. Bodhi supporting his reasons for departing from this fundamentally important aspect of the tradition.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The problem is, however, that you still have not effectively countered Ven Bodhi's educated demurral, or the other sutta statements that do not support your position.
Apart from his brief comment in his footnote I have never seen anything written by Ven. Bodhi supporting his reasons for departing from this fundamentally important aspect of the tradition.
The brief comment and the suttas texts themselves make a decent case. It would seem that otherwise if yoniso manasikara is only experienced by an ariya, you are left with the problem of being ariya arising from ayoniso manasikara. As i said, and as the suttas I quoted, I do not find your position compelling. By extension, your position would require than there is no jhana, no insights, no sila, right view, no right anything expect for the ariya, and you are left with the question of how one goes from being a worldling to being an ariya.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dhammanando
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Dhammanando »

Pulga: I don't see how that contradicts what I've written. On the contrary, it only affirms that attending to the khandhá in the proper way in accordance with the tilakkhana marks the transition from puthujjana to ariyan.

Dave: It is possible, but not instantaneous...
More to the point, the phrase “ṭhānaṃ etaṃ vijjati ... sacchikareyya” (“it is possible ... he would realize.” More literally: “...this situation is to be found ... he may realize...”) would seem to contradict Pulga by indicating that stream-entry attainment is possible for such a person but not inevitable.

If it is merely a possibility that one attending appropriately may realize the fruit of stream-entry, then there is also a possibility that he may not. And all those who do not would count as instances of puthujjanas possessed of yoniso manasikāra. Hence yoniso manasikāra may be present in a puthujjana.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Dhammanando wrote: . . .
Thank you, bhante.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dhammanando
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Dhammanando »

pulga wrote:This accords -- more or less -- with the traditional interpretation, cf. the MA to Sabbásavasutta where yoniso manasikara is identified with sotapattimagga,
The commentary to this sutta defines the term twice, once giving the stock commentarial definition (the paragraph beginning: "tattha _yoniso manasikāro_ nāma upāyamanasikāro...") and once a context-specific one (notice the limiting adverb "ettha", "here"). It is only in the latter that sotāpattimagga is alluded to. In the general definition there's no limiting of yoniso mansikāra to ariyans.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
pulga
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga »

Dhammanando wrote: More to the point, the phrase “ṭhānaṃ etaṃ vijjati ... sacchikareyya” (“it is possible ... he would realize.” More literally: “...this situation is to be found ... he may realize...”) would seem to contradict Pulga by indicating that stream-entry attainment is possible for such a person but not inevitable.

If it is merely a possibility that one attending appropriately may realize the fruit of stream-entry, then there is also a possibility that he may not. And all those who do not would count as instances of puthujjanas possessed of yoniso manasikāra. Hence yoniso manasikāra may be present in a puthujjana.
Thank you for your input, Bhante. I find the Sutta problematical to the extent that it doesn't identify the silavata bhikkhu as being a puthujjana, and that it is exhorting him to practice yoniso manasikara for the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, not of the path. It reads as if the path has already been attained, that the silavata bhikkhu sees pancakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta, and is capable of attending to them accordingly. So I'm not really sure what level of attainment is implied. The commentary has nothing to say either way.

"Silavata bhikkhu" is a very uncommon designation in the Suttas. Might it be that given his ability to attend to the pancakkhandhá saccanulomika (to use the commentarial expression) as anicca, dukkha, and anatta, that the sutta may be referring to either a saddhanusari or to a dhammanusari, or both -- neither of whom should be regarded as puthujjanas?
Last edited by pulga on Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
pulga
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga »

Dhammanando wrote: The commentary to this sutta defines the term twice, once giving the stock commentarial definition (the paragraph beginning: "tattha _yoniso manasikāro_ nāma upāyamanasikāro...") and once a context-specific one (notice the limiting adverb "ettha", "here"). It is only in the latter that sotāpattimagga is alluded to. In the general definition there's no limiting of yoniso mansikāra to ariyans.
Thank you once again, Bhante. The general definition does however bring in the notion of saccānulomika in defining yoniso manasikara.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

pulga wrote: It reads as if the path has already been attained, that the silavata bhikkhu sees pancakkhanda as anicca, dukkha, and anatta, and is capable of attending to them accordingly. . .
No, it does not, not in the Ven Bodhi translation, CDB 970-1: "A virtuous bhikkhushould carefully attend to these five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent . . . as non-self. When , friend, a virtuous bhikkhu carefully attends to these five aggregates subject to clinging, it is possible that he may realize the fruit of stream-entry. But, friend Sariputta, what are the things that a bhikkhu who is a stream-enterer should carefully attend to?" The distinction is made here between one who ariya and who is not, but who might become so based upon the careful attention employed. But there is no guarantee that any particuar incident of the practice of yoniso manasikara would necessarily lead to ariya status.

Let me as you a question here: Was the bodhisatta ariya before his awakening?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
pulga
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga »

Dhammanando wrote: If it is merely a possibility that one attending appropriately may realize the fruit of stream-entry, then there is also a possibility that he may not. And all those who do not would count as instances of puthujjanas possessed of yoniso manasikāra. Hence yoniso manasikāra may be present in a puthujjana.
Or it may imply that through the very act of yoniso manasikara and the accompanying penetration through understanding the path is attained, thus making it possible for the fruit to be realized. This might explain the silence in the Sutta as to whether the silavata bhikkhu is to be regarded as puthujjana or ariyan.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

pulga wrote:
Dhammanando wrote: If it is merely a possibility that one attending appropriately may realize the fruit of stream-entry, then there is also a possibility that he may not. And all those who do not would count as instances of puthujjanas possessed of yoniso manasikāra. Hence yoniso manasikāra may be present in a puthujjana.
Or it may imply that through the very act of yoniso manasikara and the accompanying penetration through understanding the path is attained, thus making it possible for the fruit to be realized. This might explain the silence in the Sutta as to whether the silavata bhikkhu is to be regarded as puthujjana or ariyan.
The problem is, as we have seen, the particulat text in question is not saying what you are suggesting it is saying.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
pulga
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga »

tiltbillings wrote:The problem is, as we have seen, the particulat text in question is not saying what you are suggesting it is saying.
I think the crux of the matter is whether a puthujjana can properly attend to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta. I say he can't, that the tilakkhana is beyond his ken.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The problem is, as we have seen, the particulat text in question is not saying what you are suggesting it is saying.
I think the crux of the matter is whether a puthujjana can properly attend to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta. I say he can't, that the tilakkhana is beyond his ken.
there are two type of putthujjana. the fully ignorant one and the one who is beginning to study and see the way, who is starting to understand the agggregates , the ayatanas, conditionality. this latter one may eventually discern nama and rupa and subsequently the tilakkhana.
pulga
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga »

robertk wrote:there are two type of putthujjana. the fully ignorant one and the one who is beginning to study and see the way, who is starting to understand the agggregates , the ayatanas, conditionality. this latter one may eventually discern nama and rupa and subsequently the tilakkhana.
I take it your cat is a fully ignorant one.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The problem is, as we have seen, the particulat text in question is not saying what you are suggesting it is saying.
I think the crux of the matter is whether a puthujjana can properly attend to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta. I say he can't, that the tilakkhana is beyond his ken.
It depends upon what you mean by "properly attend[ing] to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta." Obviously one can have yoniso manasikara, but not yet attain to ariya status.

Again, the question: Was the bodhisatta ariya befor his awakening?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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