Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
danieLion
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by danieLion »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The factor of enlightenment called "Investigation of Phenomena" (Dhammavicaya), by means of which a meditator gains insight, does not speculate, it just observes things as they truly are, without any prejudice or bias.
I brought dhammavicaya up quite early in this thread.

It's not accurate to say "without any." Observing as a form of knowing comes with it's own assumptions and biases and requires critical judgment (and the way you phrase this looks to me like what Ellis and Burns call the irrational belief/cognitive distortion of All-Or-Nothing Thinking). The Path has a Goal (telos) and is fabricated by the practitioners verbal, mental, and bodily actions. The Goal dictates which biases to have and which to discard. The fabricating of The Path requires critical thinking. Critical thinking, by the definition in the video, is not merely speculative as the goal postulated there is to improve thinking. If you read Thanissaro's Skill In Questions, for instance, you'll find a case for the fact that the Buddha did just this.
danieLion
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by danieLion »

robertk wrote:
Mr Man wrote:No it isn't. critical thinking is about thought based solutions to thought created problems. Vipassana is transformative. It creates a shift. Critical thinking is of the world.

Would be interested to hear from robertk and also from those with a strong "classical" sutta understanding would have to say?
Dear mr man
vipassana is as you say not thinking about a subject. see below from sujin boriharnwanaket.
Here is an extract from Dhamma talk:

Acharn:seeing arising and seeing sees but acctually how come to be seeing? No
self, No body. While one is fast asleep no one there at all. No friend, no
possesion, no name, no world.
But how come sound appearing? See, it indicates anattaness, when there is right
time for hearing to hear whatever sound is there it has to arise..by conditions.
And than goes away instantly. Unknowingly from birth to death. So it's not
understanding reality at all. There is always thinking, about realities or about
subject, different subject like medicine, and architecture and history. But not
the understanding any reality at all. But one has to be born and die. For sure.
Because acctually there is no one who is born, and no one who dies. But this is
a conditioned reality.

No one can stop it. The arising and falling away of a reality.

What about at this moment of seeing. It is so real, because whatever is seen is
seen, now...We dont need to say this is nama, which sees and the ruupa is seen.
Not necessery at all. That is not the way. But the way to understand is that
when there is seeing right now, there is seeing. What does it sees? What is
seen? The thing that is seen is not the seeing. So there is beginning of
understanding, the nature of reality.

Be http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/129346" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
on the other hand without understanding correctly intellectually what the Buddha taught their couldn't be direct insight.

so if there is wise thinking about Dhamma there is at that time the factor of panna, wisdom. it is a a prequisite for deeper levels as i see it.
So is Sujin saying "reality" is not a "subject"? I really like your last two sentences.
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Polar Bear
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

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danieLion wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:As Ben already pointed out, critical thinking can apply to the investigation of dhammas factor of awakening.
I pointed this out before Ben did.
polarbuddha101 wrote:Another good use of critical thinking with the aim of improving one's thinking comes from the Dvedhavitakka Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). And as pointed out critical thinking should play a significant role in cultivating right effort as well as appropriate attention.
Which I initially brought up also. Did you skip my posts?
No. I read your posts. I guess I sort of skipped over dhamma vicaya without processing it. Also, you did point out the difference between skillful and unskillful desire but not the sutta on two kinds of thinking so that is why I brought that up. And yes, I was referring to you implicitly when I mentioned appropriate attention and right effort. I was only referring to Ben when I mentioned investigation of dhammas as a factor of awakening. Anyway, good stuff you wrote, it was interesting.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Mr Man
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by Mr Man »

danieLion wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Critical thinking is of the world.
Computers are "of the world" too, yet you seem to have no problem using them as a dhamma tool.
I was not negating intelligence just assigning it a place.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

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porpoise wrote:A brief definition of "critical thinking" would be helpful - or at least what it means in this thread.
did you watch the video?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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robertk
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by robertk »

danieLion wrote:
robertk wrote: sujin:There is always thinking, about realities or about
subject, different subject like medicine, and architecture and history. But not
the understanding [of]any reality at all.

No one can stop it. The arising and falling away of a reality.

What about at this moment of seeing. It is so real, because whatever is seen is
seen, now..
So is Sujin saying "reality" is not a "subject"? .
she is using the term realities to mean paramattha dhammas, the khandhas, dhatus, like seeing, hearing, sound, vedana etc.
So even we Buddhists, even if we know Abhidhamma, tend to think about these realities rather than knowing them at the moment they arise.(and most of the time we simply think about worldly topics.)
danieLion
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by danieLion »

polarbuddha101 wrote:
danieLion wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:As Ben already pointed out, critical thinking can apply to the investigation of dhammas factor of awakening.
I pointed this out before Ben did.
polarbuddha101 wrote:Another good use of critical thinking with the aim of improving one's thinking comes from the Dvedhavitakka Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). And as pointed out critical thinking should play a significant role in cultivating right effort as well as appropriate attention.
Which I initially brought up also. Did you skip my posts?
No. I read your posts. I guess I sort of skipped over dhamma vicaya without processing it. Also, you did point out the difference between skillful and unskillful desire but not the sutta on two kinds of thinking so that is why I brought that up. And yes, I was referring to you implicitly when I mentioned appropriate attention and right effort. I was only referring to Ben when I mentioned investigation of dhammas as a factor of awakening. Anyway, good stuff you wrote, it was interesting.
:anjali:
danieLion
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by danieLion »

Mr Man wrote:
danieLion wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Critical thinking is of the world.
Computers are "of the world" too, yet you seem to have no problem using them as a dhamma tool.
I was not negating intelligence just assigning it a place.
Thanks for clarifying. :anjali:
danieLion
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by danieLion »

robertk wrote:
danieLion wrote:
robertk wrote: sujin:There is always thinking, about realities or about
subject, different subject like medicine, and architecture and history. But not
the understanding [of]any reality at all.

No one can stop it. The arising and falling away of a reality.

What about at this moment of seeing. It is so real, because whatever is seen is
seen, now..
So is Sujin saying "reality" is not a "subject"? .
she is using the term realities to mean paramattha dhammas, the khandhas, dhatus, like seeing, hearing, sound, vedana etc.
So even we Buddhists, even if we know Abhidhamma, tend to think about these realities rather than knowing them at the moment they arise.(and most of the time we simply think about worldly topics.)
Speaking of the Abhidhamma, it, at times, strikes me as a highly sophisticated manifestion of a great early Buddhist critical thinking project. I don't see how they could've created such an elaborate scholasticism without the application of crtical thinking, but that may partially be ignorance on my part, as I have not yet completed a full course of study in the Abhidhamma. So, I'll defer to your corrections on this matter if you have any.
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robertk
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

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in the Introduction of the "Atthasåliní" (The Expositor,) it is said that the Buddha, during the fourth week after his

enlightenment, sat in the "Jewel House", (near the bodhi tree)

... "And while he contemplated the contents of the "Dhammasangani",

his body did not emit rays; and similarly with the contemplation of the

next five books. But when, coming to the "Great Book", he began to

contemplate the twenty-four universal causal relations of condition, of

presentation, and so on, his omniscience certainly found its opportunity

therein. For as the great fish Timirati-piògala finds room only in the

great ocean eighty-four thousand yojanas in depth, so his omniscience

truly finds room only in the Great Book. Rays of six colours- indigo,

golden, red, white, tawny, and dazzling- issued from the Teacher’s

body, as he was contemplating the subtle and abstruse Dhamma by his

omniscience which had found such opportunity...."
twelph
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by twelph »

danieLion wrote:
twelph wrote:As a side note, meditation has the benefit of stilling the mind to the point where evaluating one's thinking can be directly linked to different sensations in the body. When critical thinking talks about trying to determine your own bias, using the body as a frame of reference to notice when you feel strongly about something will help you from falling into these traps.

I believe that several teachers have mentioned that in the west there is a stigmatism associated with being aware of your body. Taking this into consideration, it makes sense that critical thinking (with the current iteration being developed mostly from western philosophy) would lack this portion of the Dhamma.
Which teachers?

REBT, CBT, DBT and MBCT do the opposite of stigmatize the body. E.g., REBT and CBT teaches unconditional self acceptance, which includes body acceptance, and DBT (Marsha Linehan's mindfulness infused version of CBT) and MBCT specifically teach mindfulness of the body. And all these therapeutic modalities teach critical thinking, so they definitely do not lack this portion of the Dhamma.
I stand corrected about critical thinking lacking awareness of the body. I must admit I've only read a couple of books on the subject, both of them lacking this understanding. When I was talking about teachers saying that the west have a sort of taboo associated with cultivating an awareness of the body, I was referring to teachers of the Dhamma making these claims, not teachers of critical thinking.

Edit: We still seem to be talking about two different things, i was referring to western critical thinking, you are talking about western mindfulness adaptations.
danieLion wrote:Plato was a fascist and fascism is completely incompatible with critical thinking and vipassana. Who are thes bone-head scholars you refer to?
Plato's books referenced the socratic dialogue on multiple occasions, the socratic dialectic of Socrates is widely considered the cornerstone of critical thinking. When I talk about Socrate's and Plato's view on enlightenment, I am not asserting that they are one in the same as the Buddhist notion of enlightenment. I have read a thesis at Berkeley Theological Union Library talking about Platonism, religion, and enlightenment, but I can't seem to find reference to it online. There are several articles online linking Buddhism and Platonism, here is one: http://everything2.com/title/Education% ... d+Buddhism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I understand that Plato's "The Republic" has fascist ideals, but there is more to Plato than his political ideology.
Last edited by twelph on Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by Cittasanto »

I have edited the OP for some more clarity.

Thanks all for the responses. I am mulling them over at present and will reply soon.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Cittasanto
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by Cittasanto »

Mr Man wrote:No it isn't. critical thinking is about thought based solutions to thought created problems. Vipassana is transformative. It creates a shift. Critical thinking is of the world.

Would be interested to hear from robertk and also from those with a strong "classical" sutta understanding would have to say?
By your definition.
How do you reflect on actions and see whether it is skilful or not, and how skilful it is without being critical about various aspects of your own thinking and actions?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Cittasanto
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by Cittasanto »

polarbuddha101 wrote:And as pointed out critical thinking should play a significant role in cultivating right effort as well as appropriate attention.
It is in no simple way critical thinking that informs us if we are attending appropriately.
Is it skilful or not? is it for our benefit or not....
the thought of another person as "beautiful" can lead to all sorts of fanciful thinking, but looking where the thought comes from can inform how we move forward in practice. is the beauty only skin deep, or is it something else? are they seen as a lover, or a potential Kalyana mitta and the rumination going in the appropriate direction? (something I not too long ago got wrong :( )
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Cittasanto
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by Cittasanto »

kirk5a wrote:If the analysis doesn't result in stilling, it's papañca.
and what if it resulted in dispassion; being unfettered; shedding; to modesty; to contentment; to seclusion; to aroused persistence; to being unburdensome?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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