Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Spiny Norman
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by Spiny Norman »

A brief definition of "critical thinking" would be helpful - or at least what it means in this thread.
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Dan74
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by Dan74 »

I understand critical thinking to mean an objective logical examination of a matter at hand. Objective usually implies 'from the outside', impartial. Logical implies using facts and inferences in accordance with a set of rules that describe permissible deductions, etc

Vipassana, I understand to be, becoming aware, discerning clearly, particularly vis-a-vis mental patterns that have up until now remained obscure. A necessary foundation is lack of clinging/investment in what is discerned. This corresponds to impartiality in critical thinking. Another necessary condition is clarity and a subtle sensitivity, which are cultivated through practice. The inquiry in vipassana is typically of an inner sort, where all matter of personal clinging may render the matter completely obscure. Many people adept at critical thinking fail miserably in inner inquiry, so I think they are quite different.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

kirk5a wrote:If the analysis doesn't result in stilling, it's papañca.
I agree. In my opinion insight meditation requires the mind to be still — not dull and uncritical, but not constantly doubting and speculating either.

From a quick look at the video, it seems to me that that kind of critical thinking would lead to more speculation and discursive thought. The factor of enlightenment called "Investigation of Phenomena" (Dhammavicaya), by means of which a meditator gains insight, does not speculate, it just observes things as they truly are, without any prejudice or bias.

Venerable Mahāsi Sayadaw had this to say in his Discourse on Dependent Origination:
Beyond Reasoning and Speculation

When the Buddha was first considering whether or not to teach, he thought, “This truth that I have realised is very profound. Though it is sublime and conducive to inner peace, it is hard to understand. Since it is subtle and not accessible to mere intellect and logic, it can be realised only by the wise.” Great thinkers from all cultures have thought deeply about freedom from the misery of aging, disease, and death, but such freedom would mean nibbāna, which is beyond the scope of reason and intellect. It can be realised only by practising the right method of insight meditation. Most great thinkers have relied on intellect and logical reasoning to conceive various principles for the well-being of humanity. As these principles are based on speculations, they do not help anyone to attain insight, let alone the supreme goal of nibbāna. Even the lowest stage of insight, namely, analytical knowledge of mind and matter (nāmarūpa-pariccheda-ñāna), cannot be realised intellectually. This insight dawns only when one observes the mental and physical process using the systematic method of mindfulness (satipatthāna), and when, with the development of concentration, one distinguishes between mental and physical phenomena — for example, between the desire to bend the hand and the bent hand, or between the sound and the hearing. Such knowledge is not vague and speculative, but vivid and empirical.

The Pāli texts say that mind and matter are constantly changing, and that we should observe their arising and passing away. However, for the beginner in meditation, this is easier said than done. One has to exert strenuous effort to overcome mental hindrances (nīvarana). Even freedom from such hindrances only helps one to distinguish between mind and matter; it does not ensure insight into the process of their arising and passing away. This insight is attained only on the basis of strong concentration and keen perception developed through the practice of mindfulness. Constant mindfulness of the arising and passing away of phenomena leads to insight into their characteristics of impermanence (anicca), unsatisfactoriness (dukkha), and not-self (anattā). However, this is merely a lower stage of insight, which is still far from the Path and its Fruition. So, the Dhamma is described as something beyond logic and intellect.
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robertk
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by robertk »

Mr Man wrote:No it isn't. critical thinking is about thought based solutions to thought created problems. Vipassana is transformative. It creates a shift. Critical thinking is of the world.

Would be interested to hear from robertk and also from those with a strong "classical" sutta understanding would have to say?
Dear mr man
vipassana is as you say not thinking about a subject. see below from sujin boriharnwanaket.
Here is an extract from Dhamma talk:

Acharn:seeing arising and seeing sees but acctually how come to be seeing? No
self, No body. While one is fast asleep no one there at all. No friend, no
possesion, no name, no world.
But how come sound appearing? See, it indicates anattaness, when there is right
time for hearing to hear whatever sound is there it has to arise..by conditions.
And than goes away instantly. Unknowingly from birth to death. So it's not
understanding reality at all. There is always thinking, about realities or about
subject, different subject like medicine, and architecture and history. But not
the understanding any reality at all. But one has to be born and die. For sure.
Because acctually there is no one who is born, and no one who dies. But this is
a conditioned reality.

No one can stop it. The arising and falling away of a reality.

What about at this moment of seeing. It is so real, because whatever is seen is
seen, now...We dont need to say this is nama, which sees and the ruupa is seen.
Not necessery at all. That is not the way. But the way to understand is that
when there is seeing right now, there is seeing. What does it sees? What is
seen? The thing that is seen is not the seeing. So there is beginning of
understanding, the nature of reality.

Be http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/129346" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
on the other hand without understanding correctly intellectually what the Buddha taught their couldn't be direct insight.

so if there is wise thinking about Dhamma there is at that time the factor of panna, wisdom. it is a a prequisite for deeper levels as i see it.
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by danieLion »

twelph wrote:It starts to get really interesting if you view Plato's "The One" and "The Good" as a form of enlightenment like some scholars have chosen to do.
Plato was a fascist and fascism is completely incompatible with critical thinking and vipassana. Who are thes bone-head scholars you refer to?
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by danieLion »

twelph wrote:As a side note, meditation has the benefit of stilling the mind to the point where evaluating one's thinking can be directly linked to different sensations in the body. When critical thinking talks about trying to determine your own bias, using the body as a frame of reference to notice when you feel strongly about something will help you from falling into these traps.

I believe that several teachers have mentioned that in the west there is a stigmatism associated with being aware of your body. Taking this into consideration, it makes sense that critical thinking (with the current iteration being developed mostly from western philosophy) would lack this portion of the Dhamma.
Which teachers?

REBT, CBT, DBT and MBCT do the opposite of stigmatize the body. E.g., REBT and CBT teaches unconditional self acceptance, which includes body acceptance, and DBT (Marsha Linehan's mindfulness infused version of CBT) and MBCT specifically teach mindfulness of the body. And all these therapeutic modalities teach critical thinking, so they definitely do not lack this portion of the Dhamma.
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by danieLion »

polarbuddha101 wrote:As Ben already pointed out, critical thinking can apply to the investigation of dhammas factor of awakening.
I pointed this out before Ben did.
polarbuddha101 wrote:Another good use of critical thinking with the aim of improving one's thinking comes from the Dvedhavitakka Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). And as pointed out critical thinking should play a significant role in cultivating right effort as well as appropriate attention.
Which I initially brought up also. Did you skip my posts?
danieLion
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by danieLion »

kirk5a wrote:If the analysis doesn't result in stilling, it's papañca.
Right. Ellis would call papanca irrational beliefs and David D. Burns cognitive distortions.
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by danieLion »

Mr Man wrote:No it isn't.
No what isn't? Who and what are you specifically responding to?
danieLion
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by danieLion »

Mr Man wrote:Critical thinking is of the world.
Computers are "of the world" too, yet you seem to have no problem using them as a dhamma tool.
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by danieLion »

Ben wrote:Also, you might be interested in the section in Ven Analayo's seminal work "Satipatthana", on "Investigation of Dhammas" which can be interpreted as self-reflexive analysis.
It's been a few years since I read it so thanks for the reminder.
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by danieLion »

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:No it isn't. critical thinking is about thought based solutions to thought created problems. Vipassana is transformative. It creates a shift. Critical thinking is of the world.
A sutta response:

"When for you there will be only the seen in the seen, only the heard in the
heard, only the sensed in the sensed, only the cognized in the cognized,
then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms
of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither
here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of suffering."


-- Ud I 10
This is not a matter of conceptual, critical thinking, and it is something that can be cultivated.
How can it be cultivated without critical thinking?
danieLion
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by danieLion »

porpoise wrote:A brief definition of "critical thinking" would be helpful - or at least what it means in this thread.
It has been. Watch the video or read the post here where I transcribed it. It's very good, IMHO.
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by danieLion »

Dan74 wrote:Many people adept at critical thinking fail miserably in inner inquiry, so I think they are quite different.
True. That's why it needs to be combined with a skillful telos, or purpose, which Buddhism, REBT, CBT, MBCT and DBT all provide.
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Mr Man
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Re: Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?

Post by Mr Man »

danieLion wrote:
Mr Man wrote:No it isn't.
No what isn't? Who and what are you specifically responding to?
I am responding to the question, which is the OP "Is Critical Thinking Active Vipassana?"
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