natural progression of meditation?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Samma
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Post by Samma » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:08 am

Sure, teachers say different things and its a problem.
What to do? Follow what seems to make sense, and start with vitakka & vicara.
Just begin,and its trial and error really. You don't want to end up with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; right?
Maybe read: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... mbers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and have some more self-reliance.

I might recommend Richard Shankman's book though as it it gives some history to the issue, looking at samadhi in terms of sutta and commentaries, which is where a lot of the differences come from a clash between the two.
http://books.google.com/books?id=lQ_ZzF ... frontcover" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Post by LonesomeYogurt » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:25 am

alan... wrote:with many absorption teachings you drop the breath and switch to a mental nimitta of light, and as far as i know, in anapanasati you keep the breath and there are variations on whether or not a nimitta of light is used.
Then I would just recommend practicing anapanasati either way; if a nimatta does arise, then follow it, and if not, don't. A nimatta is a tool, like anything else. Don't stress over it.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.

alan...
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Post by alan... » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:32 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:IIRC, in Ajahn Brahm's method you attain the jhana factors, but he claims that they are not fully developed until you are in propfound absortion. I interpret this as meaning that the hard jhanas are nothing more than sutta jhanas with excessive concentration factor. It's a matter of degree. So what's most likely is that any method will lead you through the sutta jhanas first and then to the hard jhanas.
that's what i see roughly.

alan...
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Post by alan... » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:43 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
alan... wrote:
LonesomeYogurt wrote:well some say the city is where you lack all your senses and are totally absorbed by it, others say you still have your senses and so on. so the path leading to it is different, so is the destination. it's a joke. seriously, the only way this would be easier on me is if i had a teacher that i had faith in personally. beyond that the differences in interpretation are so vast it's maddening.
The path to either "absorption" Jhana or regular sutta Jhana is the same - mindfulness of breathing. I think you're overstressing on the different interpretations. All interpretations contain the same factors and the same progression; while some may be "deeper" than others, it's all still Jhana. I'm curious as to what, besides the sense/no-sense debate, you see as so disparate between schools.
teacher A says to focus on a blissful feeling and it will get bigger, thus you enter the first jhana. nimitta is irrelevant.

teacher B says to focus on nimitta and ignore bliss and other factors and it will lead you into jhana.

teacher C says to focus on just the breath without nimitta.

teacher D says to focus on just the breath with nimitta.

teacher E says to focus on nimitta and utilize bliss and joy, that they are nearly indispensable for entering jhana.

not only these differences but each of these teachers would have a bunch of other differences as well. these are just ones i can think of easily. there are a few more divisions and further subdivisions within each group. it's a sea of contrast and confusion. each teacher is very different from the others and many say outright or hint that their method is right concentration, being so, others are by implication wrong concentration.
Last edited by alan... on Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:48 am, edited 3 times in total.

alan...
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Post by alan... » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:45 am

Samma wrote:Sure, teachers say different things and its a problem.
What to do? Follow what seems to make sense, and start with vitakka & vicara.
Just begin,and its trial and error really. You don't want to end up with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; right?
Maybe read: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... mbers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and have some more self-reliance.

I might recommend Richard Shankman's book though as it it gives some history to the issue, looking at samadhi in terms of sutta and commentaries, which is where a lot of the differences come from a clash between the two.
http://books.google.com/books?id=lQ_ZzF ... frontcover" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the problem is that the suttas state jhana is of extreme importance and that it must be correct jhana. so i either find the correct one or i am wasting my time.

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James the Giant
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Post by James the Giant » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:50 am

Samma wrote:You don't want to end up with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; right?
Perfect diagnosis, Doctor Samma. I agree.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Post by LonesomeYogurt » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:04 am

alan... wrote: teacher A says to focus on a blissful feeling and it will get bigger, thus you enter the first jhana. nimitta is irrelevant.

teacher B says to focus on nimitta and ignore bliss and other factors and it will lead you into jhana.

teacher C says to focus on just the breath without nimitta.

teacher D says to focus on just the breath with nimitta.

teacher E says to focus on nimitta and utilize bliss and joy, that they are nearly indispensable for entering jhana.

not only these differences but each of these teachers would have a bunch of other differences as well. these are just ones i can think of easily. there are a few more divisions and further subdivisions within each group. it's a sea of contrast and confusion. each teacher is very different from the others and many say outright or hint that their method is right concentration, being so, others are by implication wrong concentration.
I honestly don't understand - why can't all of these be right? They're all just different approaches to reaching different depths of the same state. Do you think that focusing on a nimatta vs. no nimatta is really going to take you to a "different" Jhana? That's not how it works. All of these methods are appropriate and right, some just work better for some and others for others.

You're seriously overthinking this. Try a few methods and see which one works best for you. Stop the hand-wringing!
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.

alan...
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Post by alan... » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:10 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
alan... wrote: teacher A says to focus on a blissful feeling and it will get bigger, thus you enter the first jhana. nimitta is irrelevant.

teacher B says to focus on nimitta and ignore bliss and other factors and it will lead you into jhana.

teacher C says to focus on just the breath without nimitta.

teacher D says to focus on just the breath with nimitta.

teacher E says to focus on nimitta and utilize bliss and joy, that they are nearly indispensable for entering jhana.

not only these differences but each of these teachers would have a bunch of other differences as well. these are just ones i can think of easily. there are a few more divisions and further subdivisions within each group. it's a sea of contrast and confusion. each teacher is very different from the others and many say outright or hint that their method is right concentration, being so, others are by implication wrong concentration.
I honestly don't understand - why can't all of these be right? They're all just different approaches to reaching different depths of the same state. Do you think that focusing on a nimatta vs. no nimatta is really going to take you to a "different" Jhana? That's not how it works. All of these methods are appropriate and right, some just work better for some and others for others.

You're seriously overthinking this. Try a few methods and see which one works best for you. Stop the hand-wringing!
have you read brahm? he implies that only his very specific nimitta method can allow one to enter jhana. he even implies that the nimitta must look they way he teaches or it's incorrect.

other teachers are varying in their degree of strictness in their teachings on this topic. brahm just comes to mind since he's so adamant about his specific methods.

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Post by LonesomeYogurt » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:34 am

alan... wrote:have you read brahm? he implies that only his very specific nimitta method can allow one to enter jhana. he even implies that the nimitta must look they way he teaches or it's incorrect.

other teachers are varying in their degree of strictness in their teachings on this topic. brahm just comes to mind since he's so adamant about his specific methods.
Then if his specific methods don't work for you, just disregard them. There's nary a mention of nimattas in the suttas anyway, so I wouldn't worry.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.

Samma
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:47 pm

Re: natural progression of meditation?

Post by Samma » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:42 am

Alan you are being very loose in throwing around conclusions you draw from teachers and suttas. If you want to get into specific differences, QUOTE. For example,
"he implies that only his very specific nimitta method can allow one to enter jhana. he even implies that the nimitta must look they way he teaches or it's incorrect."
This is not the impression I have of Brahm, see a quote from Richard Shankman's book where Brahm recognizes different types of nimitta:
The experience that is the most similar for most meditators is that of a stronglight. So sometimes that nimitta can seem incredibly brilliant, so much so that you thinkyou cannot stare at it any longer, until you realize that this is not a visual thing at all. It is a purely mental phenomenon, and it doesn’t matter how brilliant it gets. It is like looking into the sun, but it is quite safe, because it is a pure mental image.Some people can use an equivalent nimitta, which is a feeling nimitta that is experienced similar to the sense of physical touch. But I have to emphasize that the sense of physical touch is gone already. This is just a way it is interpreted. However, of these two, the visual nimitta is by far the most useful. It is stronger and easier to work with. It is the one that I encourage. But you do not develop it by expanding and contracting and moving it around.
The suttas are not too detailed, thus we are left with confusion and many different interpretations. The widest perspective being that that there are several ways into jhana, and different degrees of jhana. The narrowest being that only one is correct and the others are wrong. And even other approaches that say jhana is not necessary. Again, the solution is to practice a lot and come to your own conclusions. What is your experience so far? I'd suggest Thanissaro's book With Each & Every Breath, and see how that goes. And if you want to compare differences, don't be loose about it, and don't expect much to come out of it besides this-says-that, that-says-this.

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Magoo
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Post by Magoo » Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:13 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
alan... wrote:have you read brahm? he implies that only his very specific nimitta method can allow one to enter jhana. he even implies that the nimitta must look they way he teaches or it's incorrect.
In regard to the above statement, I dont agree that this is what Ajahn Brahm implies. I have heard this directly from the horses mouth (Sorry AB if you read this). A Nimitta is percieved differently for different people but most commenly perceived as a light or lights of possible varying colours. As it is only a perception it is subjective and has to be different for different people and also is very hard to describe if experienced.

From what I have read in this thread I would follow every bit of advice offered by Lonesome Yogurt. Personally I follow the Ajahn Brahm method as he is local to me and a great teacher. But as Lonesome said I am sure there are other paths, all very similar in nature that work for different people so these peopel all provide their guidence and instruction. If it works for tehm its great they are sharing. I have upmost faith in Ajahn Brahm and thats why i choose to just stick to his method. Keep it simple. :buddha1:

Let go...let go...let go and let it all happen...whatever it may be.

Good luck and enjoy your meditation. It can be a lot of fun! :anjali:

Eamonn

lojong1
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Post by lojong1 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:01 am

alan... wrote:how do i avoid [wrong concentration]?
Common ground is the bomb. Go visit a mosque, seriously.

Dinsdale
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:00 am

alan... wrote:..that being said, what happens if i just give up and watch my breath and do nothing else? and then after, or during, i practice vipassana? surely it's possible i will end up going through the jhanas naturally without really knowing it, or it's possible this is wrong concentration?
I share your frustration, there are many different interpretations and it can be confusing. And also there are 40 meditation objects including the kasinas, the breath is only one option.

Perhaps the answer is to focus on a simple practice like mindfulness of breathing and see where it leads.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:03 am

Samma wrote: And even other approaches that say jhana is not necessary.
Yes, this is a further complication, it seems to depend on which teacher(s) one believes.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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kirk5a
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Post by kirk5a » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:04 pm

alan... wrote: the problem is that the suttas state jhana is of extreme importance and that it must be correct jhana. so i either find the correct one or i am wasting my time.
This is a sufficiently broad definition to allow for some variation, in my opinion.
The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I would focus on the phrase "singleness of mind" ("unification of mind", cittassa ekaggatā).
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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